2008 Mazdaspeed 3 vs. 2008 Subaru Impreza WRX vs. 2009 Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart

[prizrak]

Originally Posted by Disciple

I would beg to differ my good man. My EVO can sprint to 100km/h in under 4 seconds when launched right, and can do it repeatedly without breaking anything. (mind you I have an aftermarket HD clutch)

You CAN launch an AWD right and it WILL be pretty fast. Same way as you can make a FWD car handle nicely but the basics of the drivetrains are the same. Your clutch is probably OK but I would keep an eye on the diffs

I would also take active torque transfer systems into account. Most AWD's these days don't run 50:50 all the time so they are better at launching. However you gotta keep in mind anytime Top Gear (I know not quite the end all be all) runs Lambos vs Ferraris you can see that Ferrari generally has an advantage off the line despite similar power.

[thedguy]

Originally Posted by jetsetter

They are planning too.

Not in the US.

Originally Posted by prizrak

AWD was never very good at standing starts though. It's hard to launch them w/o killing all of the drive train by like 2nd try MS3 also has a pretty serious FWD system that helps.

The problem with the MS3 is it's still FWD. Physics 101, accelerating takes weight off the front end and puts it on the rear end.

The only thing holding back 99% of AWD standing starts is the driver/owners fear breaking something. Mitsubishi's twin clutch transmission is weak (like the rest of them) and so made it absolutely pathetic off the line.

Top Gear (I know not quite the end all be all) runs Lambos vs Ferraris you can see that Ferrari generally has an advantage off the line despite similar power.

See my above comment about breaking parts... American journalists have no problem doing 5500rpm clutch drops.

Originally Posted by Disciple

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...hotopanel..1.*

Feast your eyes. Not blisteringly fast, but that's mainly due to the transmission not being aggressive enough to give a good launch. If you want a boy racer off the lights kinda car, get the MS3 or an EVO 9.

After reading that review I couldn't justify the ralliart, be it a sedan or the hatch. Looks like a visit to the Mazda dealer is in my future.

[prizrak]

The problem with the MS3 is it's still FWD. Physics 101, accelerating takes weight off the front end and puts it on the rear end.

That is true, there are ways to help that, with suspension and TC systems (not necessarily electronic).

The only thing holding back 99% of AWD standing starts is the driver/owners fear breaking something. Mitsubishi's twin clutch transmission is weak (like the rest of them) and so made it absolutely pathetic off the line.

I thought that it is inevitable that you would. Making all 4 wheels get off the line is generally harder than just 2 regardless. I do agree that if you either don't care much about braking anything or have strong enough parts AWDs can get off the line extremely quickly.

I do wish MS3 would come in an AWD version. I believe the MS6 has AWD as an option, sadly it's not quite as good looking :'(

After reading that review I couldn't justify the ralliart, be it a sedan or the hatch. Looks like a visit to the Mazda dealer is in my future.

To be honest it was always hard for me to justify getting a scaled down version of either the STi or the Evo. I mean even the highest end versions of these cars are not exactly too powerful for normal driving and while a new one is generally fairly costly for the demographic I used one car be had for quite a bit less.

[Disciple]

I don't think Mitsubishi's SST gearbox is weak, it's just been built to specification. Torque limit is 470nm in this revision, but other boxes by getrag such as the one found in the GTR have a much higher torque capability. But, after reading even the EVOm forums, guys in NZ are tuning the SST gearboxes to much past the quoted max torque capacity of 470nm and getrag have adivsed them that it's well within safe operating numbers for the gearbox.

http://www.getrag.de/en/234 - EVO X Gearbox. I think the Ralliart uses the 450nm version. - http://www.getrag.de/en/232

So I don't think it's a case of the gearbox being weak, more that Mitsubishi regard driveline longevity over being able to launch the car fast. I mean, in Australia, we get a 10 year warranty on the drivetrain.

Just on the Lambo vs Ferrari thing, youtube the 1/4 mile race between Lambo Supperleggera (sp?) and the GTR. The guy driving the Lambo revs it to redline in neutral, then when the light goes green he bangs the transmission into first gear! Oh btw, the diff in my car will be fine, they're very strong. The transfer case will give way tho if launched incorrectly too many times, ie. 7,000rpm side steps.

[prizrak]

Originally Posted by Disciple

I don't think Mitsubishi's SST gearbox is weak, it's just been built to specification. Torque limit is 470nm in this revision, but other boxes by getrag such as the one found in the GTR have a much higher torque capability. But, after reading even the EVOm forums, guys in NZ are tuning the SST gearboxes to much past the quoted max torque capacity of 470nm and getrag have adivsed them that it's well within safe operating numbers for the gearbox.

http://www.getrag.de/en/234 - EVO X Gearbox. I think the Ralliart uses the 450nm version. - http://www.getrag.de/en/232

So I don't think it's a case of the gearbox being weak, more that Mitsubishi regard driveline longevity over being able to launch the car fast. I mean, in Australia, we get a 10 year warranty on the drivetrain.

Just on the Lambo vs Ferrari thing, youtube the 1/4 mile race between Lambo Supperleggera (sp?) and the GTR. The guy driving the Lambo revs it to redline in neutral, then when the light goes green he bangs the transmission into first gear! Oh btw, the diff in my car will be fine, they're very strong. The transfer case will give way tho if launched incorrectly too many times, ie. 7,000rpm side steps.

Kinda OT but how is the reliability on your car? It is considered to be absolutely horrible here.

I'd kill the transfer case in about 3 launches, I absolutely suck at taking off

[Disciple]

Originally Posted by prizrak

Kinda OT but how is the reliability on your car? It is considered to be absolutely horrible here.

I'd kill the transfer case in about 3 launches, I absolutely suck at taking off

Sounding like an asshat now, but America gets watered down versions of the EVOs. Mine's a JDM spec, so it's very reliable. I've owned it for almost a year now and haven't had a problem touch wood. Just regular servicing, and I don't drive like a maniac which probably helps. I mean, if you are constantly launching the car at 7,000rpm and sidestepping the clutch, of course you'll brake it. No car can stand that kind of punishment.

Way OT now.

Back on topic. I'm actually considering a Ralliart Lancer to replace my fiances Lancer in a couple years - 5/10 year warranty over here is very comforting.

[thedguy]

Originally Posted by prizrak

I do wish MS3 would come in an AWD version. I believe the MS6 has AWD as an option, sadly it's not quite as good looking :'(

It wasn't an option, that was the only way to get the car.

[prizrak]

Originally Posted by thedguy

It wasn't an option, that was the only way to get the car.

They need to put the MS6 drivetrain into the MS3

[Disciple]

Originally Posted by prizrak

They need to put the MS6 drivetrain into the MS3

Problem with that then is that by adding the extra diff etc will probably make it circa 100kgs heavier, taking away the one advantage the car has as a FWD, weight. The acceleration would be dulled somewhat.

[thedguy]

Originally Posted by Disciple

Problem with that then is that by adding the extra diff etc will probably make it circa 100kgs heavier, taking away the one advantage the car has as a FWD, weight. The acceleration would be dulled somewhat.

The US spec MS6 has an extra 15-20hp to make up for that

Still the extra traction afforded by the 4wd would likely make up for it. Especially considering 1st and 2nd gear never get full power/torque due to a lack of traction.

[Disciple]

Yeah I spose that's a fair point. All good for competition IMO.

[Crazyjeeper]

Originally Posted by thedguy

The US spec MS6 has an extra 15-20hp to make up for that

Still the extra traction afforded by the 4wd would likely make up for it. Especially considering 1st and 2nd gear never get full power/torque due to a lack of traction.

Having driven a US spec MS6 (My dad has one), I have to say, that car hides its weight extremely effectively. Also, with the amount of torque that 2.3 turbo is putting out, it is possible to still spin a tire before the computer can shift power to the back even with AWD.

[Das_Idiot]

as I've said before, if the Ralliart were out when I was buying a car at the beginning of this year, I'd have bought it over the GTI. It really is about damn time they're taking on Subarus WRX. the MS3 has a disadvantage of no AWD, so that's really unfair too.

seriously though, the interior on the Mitsu is way better than the Subie as well. Still very plasticy, but it's far more feature rich. I like features. Plus the car looks really, REALLY good.

[edkwon]

Originally Posted by jayhawk

Sigh...I was hoping this article would not surface here. And you suck.

Anyway, we can see that without AYC, the Lancer is no better than the Subaru. That is my little ray of fucking sunshine in an otherwise dreary artice.

i've divorced myself of the subaru/mitsu war a while ago, maybe i just dont place any pride in any car brand anymore, lol. ppl should just get whatever they want and not be too concerned wether their car is the 'best in their class'. its not like having a 2nd best car is a reflection on the owner.

[WagonMonster]

I have both a Subaru and a Mazda, I love the Subaru, but, the Mazda is a better car.

[RUU-CHAMA]

Yeah, Mazda's are great (I am not biased in any way).

[prizrak]

Originally Posted by WagonMonster

I have both a Subaru and a Mazda, I love the Subaru, but, the Mazda is a better car.

Dude you are comparing a roadster to a wagon....

[luvcars]

Originally Posted by SoxXpupPeT

lancer looks the best

x2

[hansvonaxion]

They've started selling the Ralliart here now as a Galant Ralliart. Now I'm torn.

The missus wants an auto, I want a manual, the Mitsu's are the only cars (besides VW) with a proper semi-auto. But, I was thinking of shipping it back to Oz in the future, and for some reason the Evo's and Sti's are relatively cheap there so there's less of a price differential (I think to sneak in under the luxury car tax threshold). The RX-8 will probably be a full $10k more than the Ralliart in Oz (almost as much an EvoX), but its the same price as the Ralliart in Japan.

And now the Mazda 3 beats the Ralliart in a comparison but its $6,000 cheaper!

_________________Japan_____Oz
Mazdaspeed 3_____$24,000_____$42,000
Ralliart___________$30,000_____$42-45,000??

RX-8 Type S________$30,000_____$55,000
MX-5 RS (hard top)__$27,000_____$45,000

Prices are rounded and Japanese prices don't include stereo/nav so are not 100% accurate, but it gives an idea.

Actually we're a long way off getting anything yet, and we don't even need a car so its hard to justify it unless we can make back some money shipping it back. Would probably go used, too because there's even more of a price difference.

[jayhawk]

Originally Posted by edkwon

i've divorced myself of the subaru/mitsu war a while ago, maybe i just dont place any pride in any car brand anymore, lol. ppl should just get whatever they want and not be too concerned wether their car is the 'best in their class'. its not like having a 2nd best car is a reflection on the owner.

Keep in mind it is all tongue and cheek for the most part. Me and Icebone like to trade barbs, he being a Mitsu fan and I being a Subaru fan, it's harmless fun.

But I do love my Subarus; I still am baffled why it took so long to align myself with the company.