Bad news for new Camaro owners

[JohnnyRacer]

I'm not understanding this vulture-like approach some of us are having towards this car. Almost as of no car company has ever had any issues ever with any new line. There are so many car models that have been recalled from every car company and none of those had any remarkable technology either. I think the only reason people are looking for everything to go wrong with this car is because the spotlight is on GM right now. If this were to happen to a BMW, Mercedes, or even Ford, people would not even bat an eye about it. And I don't want to hear how the examples I gave are picture perfect companies. All have had there fuck ups.

I gotta say, I'm a little disappointed in what I'm seeing. I figured, as a car community, we would have a better understanding and be a bit more forgiving of a new model. I guess it's a double edged sword in the case.

Sad.

[Redliner]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRacer

Tell you what, you build a car from scratch, mass produce it, then tell me how it goes.

I'm not defending GM or saying it's a good car. But, as a general rule, you never buy the first year on any new model because of the very reasons you see here. No amount of development is going to stop weird shit from happening when you mass produce a complex machine such as a car.

Kind of an Alfa Romeo dillema then. Nobody buys it, waiting for someone else to get screwed? SOMEONE has to buy it.

Originally Posted by Labcoatguy

GM has had 100 years to figure out how not to fuck up the introduction of a car, to say nothing of a highly-anticipated game-changer that's been publicized for longer than they've been under the government teat. Not to mention there is absolutely no new technology that is likely to have teething troubles. Like, say, a hybrid drivetrain.

THIS.

Originally Posted by JohnnyRacer

I'm not understanding this vulture-like approach some of us are having towards this car. Almost as of no car company has ever had any issues ever with any new line. There are so many car models that have been recalled from every car company and none of those had any remarkable technology either. I think the only reason people are looking for everything to go wrong with this car is because the spotlight is on GM right now. If this were to happen to a BMW, Mercedes, or even Ford, people would not even bat an eye about it. And I don't want to hear how the examples I gave are picture perfect companies. All have had there fuck ups.

I gotta say, I'm a little disappointed in what I'm seeing. I figured, as a car community, we would have a better understanding and be a bit more forgiving of a new model. I guess it's a double edged sword in the case.

Sad.

Nowadays, any car company that screws up gets flamed. Don´t you ever read the wail of people claiming older Mercedes to be indestructible and new ones being crap? About BMW nowadays making fat, slow, ugly cars? I could go on for a long time. The interesting point here is that the Camaro is car from a company desperately needing a sucessful product because they dug their own graves with crappy products and stupid management, a company that then manages to screw it up once again (aparently) with a product that has been in the spotlight for years and therefore giving ammo for critics claiming they should have already be gone.

[TomCat]

Originally Posted by Hidden_Hunter

We didn't fuck up building it

It doesn't look like build errors to me. Seems like design errors. But oh well. I'd still buy one.

[NAIDANAC A]

I don't see why brake weights are a problem...BMW has them too, just looks nicer.

[Spectre]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRacer

I'm not understanding this vulture-like approach some of us are having towards this car. Almost as of no car company has ever had any issues ever with any new line. There are so many car models that have been recalled from every car company and none of those had any remarkable technology either. I think the only reason people are looking for everything to go wrong with this car is because the spotlight is on GM right now. If this were to happen to a BMW, Mercedes, or even Ford, people would not even bat an eye about it. And I don't want to hear how the examples I gave are picture perfect companies. All have had there fuck ups.

None of those marques have used the excuse of "we're taking the time to make sure everything is right" to explain why it was taking an extraordinarily long time to develop and release the car. GM is even on record as being proud of the "exhaustive" testing they performed to make sure this new car would be perfect. Their claims, not ours.

Then the car is released in the metal, and it turns out to be more of the same crap from GM, as if they'd never tested their design at all.

If you make promises, you better be able to deliver. GM promised, GM has not delivered. In fact, GM made huge, enormous, grand sweeping promises about how the Camaro would be the best GM car ever and that there woudn't be any launch problems. Erm... not so much.

If BMW had done the same thing, I suspect that they'd be almost as swiftly hammered by the participants here.

Originally Posted by NAIDANAC A

I don't see why brake weights are a problem...BMW has them too, just looks nicer.

BMW's brake weights are held on with bolts or cast into the caliper housings, not attached with glue or sticky tape. They're also not made of lead. You can melt lead with a pocket lighter; hot brakes on a track day or a long emergency stop will cause that lead to melt. And then you have liquid lead *everywhere*.

[JohnnyRacer]

I know I'm the minority here. So, I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Again, I'm very disappointed in the approach that has been taken.

I'm going to bow out of this thread because I see where it's going. I'm not one to argue opinions.

[NAIDANAC A]

OH LOOK.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21112

...way to jump on the OMG IT SUCKS THE BRAKE WEIGHTS THE 40 MILES OMG...ya things happen, but at least this wasn't true.

[Spectre]

Originally Posted by NAIDANAC A

OH LOOK.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21112

...way to jump on the OMG IT SUCKS THE BRAKE WEIGHTS THE 40 MILES OMG...ya things happen, but at least this wasn't true.

From that page:

During that time, I've been informed that the nose on this particular Camaro was a super early production piece, slapped on to get it out the door sooner. GM already knows about the issue, and supposedly it has been taken care of on other cars.

So, basically, GM is just slapping on substandard parts to get product out the door, and they'll fix it later??? Way to let your customers be unpaid beta testers without informing them.

"Hi, would you like to pay $40,000 to beta test the new Camaro SS?"

[Dogbert]

Originally Posted by Spectre

And then you have liquid lead *everywhere*.

Not just everywhere, inside the brake caliper itself... which will probably get a layer on the disc, too. And that's really not the worst problem with that.

The problem is when it cools again.

[NAIDANAC A]

Originally Posted by Spectre

From that page:



So, basically, GM is just slapping on substandard parts to get product out the door, and they'll fix it later??? Way to let your customers be unpaid beta testers without informing them.

"Hi, would you like to pay $40,000 to beta test the new Camaro SS?"

I have a feeling this car wasn't for sale, and was a marketing/photo car. It doesn't say other wise or say so, thus I am guessing GM doesn't use pre-production parts to slap on cars to give to dealers, maybe to get press out there but as bad as GM is I have a feeling that this car was never intended for sale.

[BlaRo]

Originally Posted by Spectre

From that page:

So, basically, GM is just slapping on substandard parts to get product out the door, and they'll fix it later??? Way to let your customers be unpaid beta testers without informing them.

"Hi, would you like to pay $40,000 to beta test the new Camaro SS?"

FTFY.

So you've giving them shit for a pre-production car used for a photo shoot at speeds that virtually no Camaro owner is going to obtain? New cars always have problems; I'm sure you with your encyclopedic knowledge of Google keywords can drum up plenty of examples of new cars failing. Credit where credit's due; at least GM is aware of it and is going to fix it (hopefully, though you can't trust the bastards).


Oh wait, now I know why you're ragging on the new Camaro so much, because it's the automotive version of Barack Obama: a newcomer that's gotten so much emphasis piled on it to become the company's "savior," to the point where every bit of news about it is going to be scrutinized by GM fans and GM haters both!

[freeferrarisdonotexist]

Originally Posted by Spectre

You know, the guy who bought your XJ12 showed up on the Jag forums (I think). He had the fuel pumps and other problems fixed in about two hours.

See, he bought something called "a factory manual" which included "wiring diagrams." This aided him in resolving problems.

Part of working on a car requires that you be smarter than it is.

What I want to say has been said- there was just too much time spend on research and development for small-to-serious failures like these to happen. Frayed battery cables, locked electrics, lead in the brakes- I would expect this in an old car or a home-engineered car, not a new, heavily-researched sports car in which every detail was supposedly carefully planned.

[starfox07]

The engine, platform, and drivetrain are all carryover pieces. What the hell did they spend so long developing? Honestly.

[Wizegui]

Originally Posted by Spectre

From that page:



So, basically, GM is just slapping on substandard parts to get product out the door, and they'll fix it later??? Way to let your customers be unpaid beta testers without informing them.

"Hi, would you like to pay $40,000 to beta test the new Camaro SS?"

Isn't that particular car just a demo car for auto journalists and what not? I don't think it really means that any of the production cars have this pre-production fender at all.

[Spectre]

If it's a demo car for the press to evaluate, and is to be considered "representative" of the product, that's even worse.

Press demo cars are supposed to be perfect. That way the press writes nice glowing reviews about them and the public buys the product.

On top of which, didn't you catch the part about the piece they put on being a production piece? That means that they were putting them on cars intended for customers.

[NAIDANAC A]

Originally Posted by Spectre

If it's a demo car for the press to evaluate, and is to be considered "representative" of the product, that's even worse.

Press demo cars are supposed to be perfect. That way the press writes nice glowing reviews about them and the public buys the product.

On top of which, didn't you catch the part about the piece they put on being a production piece? That means that they were putting them on cars intended for customers.

Super early production piece can mean many things, it could be a first run through the presses to see how everything worked, it could mean they planned on putting those on but then found a flaw and didnt pass them, could mean it failed inspection and just needed to look nice for the photos. You don't have the full story nor does anyone else...too bad I don't know anyone in Oshawa who knew anything about these pre-production cars.

[Spectre]

You're supposed to catch those problems in pre-production, not "early production."

[NAIDANAC A]

And running the production lines and finding a fault of them can be done how? I am pretty sure that is considered production.

Also with the machines anything could happen, after 10 the machine could run fine, after 11 if could fault, 12 it could stop you can never really be completely sure.

[Spectre]

Originally Posted by NAIDANAC A

And running the production lines and finding a fault of them can be done how? I am pretty sure that is considered production.

The rest of the world considers that pre-production - the actual production machinery is run at low volume at all suppliers and in the plant and the end results are very carefully checked for problems, assembled into cars, and then tested in situ to see if the proposed production components meet specs and to catch any problems that may crop up. This includes full up testing of the completed pre-production cars. Volume is ramped up in stages as parts and systems pass the tests; once full production volumes are reached, further testing ensues to make sure the machines will keep their settings, etc. This is still in the pre-production stage.

Full production is only okayed once all parts meet spec and all testing is completed. In the case of the Camaro, they don't even have the excuse of "we rushed it to market and couldn't do a full test" because they clearly had enough time.

[NAIDANAC A]

Originally Posted by Spectre

The rest of the world considers that pre-production - the actual production machinery is run at low volume at all suppliers and in the plant and the end results are very carefully checked for problems, assembled into cars, and then tested in situ to see if the proposed production components meet specs and to catch any problems that may crop up. This includes full up testing of the completed pre-production cars.

Full production is only okayed once all parts meet spec and all testing is completed. In the case of the Camaro, they don't even have the excuse of "we rushed it to market and couldn't do a full test" because they clearly had enough time.

The best part of all this, is that YOU NOR I NOR THE POSTER knows whether it was "super early" means "pre" or "fully production". I just made scenarios which could've happened.