Ethanol blends damage some engines.

[Blind_Io]

http://jalopnik.com/5043482/ethanol-...-small-engines

If you've been having trouble with your small gasoline power equipment lately, MSNBC reports that you're not alone: Small-engine mechanics nationwide are seeing a spike in engine damage they claim is attributable to the increasing use of ethanol in gasoline. We're not talking about E85 here either; apparently, it's the much more common (and in some places ubiquitous) E10 blend, which is 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline, that technicians are blaming for gummed-up carburetors, internal rust and lubrication issues. Of course, ethanol trade groups are claiming their extensive testing showed no adverse effects from running E10 in small gas engines. But the mechanics' descriptions of what they're seeing, coupled with the known properties of ethanol, make for a compelling argument. Since ethanol combines readily with water, gasoline containing ethanol easily transports that suspended water into the engine. Once inside, the water can gum up carburetors and cause rust on key components, leading to rapid wear and eventual breakdown.
On two-stroke engines, the potential for damage is even more acute. Small two-strokes carry their lubricating oil suspended in the air/fuel mixture. Mechanics are reporting that the presence of water in that mixture, carried by ethanol, is causing the lubricating oil to disperse before it reaches critical engine components. Since an oil-starved engine doesn't last long, customers are reporting mechanical failure after only a season or two of use.
And heads up to you maintenance junkies: draining the tank every season won't prevent problems. The deposits and damage apparently occur independently of the "gum and varnish" issues previously associated with old, stale gasoline. So what can you do? Read pump labels carefully, and if you can find ethanol-free gasoline in your area, buy it. If not, there isn't much you can do except hire a lawn service and let their equipment take the abuse.

Makes me somewhat concerned about my bike engine.

[KaJuN]

It sounds like they're more concerned about engines in lawn equipment but I'm now worried about my bike's engine as well since it was designed back when ethanol mixed in with gas was unheard of.

[Spectre]

Actually, E10 was around in the 80s, and most bike (and car) makers took it into account. Check your owner's manual or contact your bike's manufacturer.

My Honda's manual says nothing about it, but the ones for my Nissan and Jags say that E10 is okay for use - but nothing with more ethanol.

[NecroJoe]

This has been common knowledge for years where I grew up. The state always tested gasoline additives in teh 5-county area I grew up. They had to disclose what they were adding.

With the ethanol, though, everyone noticed that their lawnmowers, weed-whackers, chainsaws and snow blowers started running like crap, and we'd drive 2 counties over to get "real" gas for our small engines.

[Redliner]

I call bullshit on this one. Gasoline in Brazil has 25% of ethanol, and cars from all over the world have been fed this stuff for decades without any problems apart from a slight loss of a few hp and worse mileage because ethanol has a lower energy per volume. The ideal would be to raise the compression a little (which should be hassle free, since ethanol has a higher octane rating) and the power should be AT LEAST equal to before. In fact, converting our cars to run on 100% ethanol is a common practice amongst people who turbocharge their cars, since compression can be higher.

[Labcoatguy]

Originally Posted by Redliner

I call bullshit on this one. Gasoline in Brazil has 25% of ethanol, and cars from all over the world have been fed this stuff for decades without any problems apart from a slight loss of a few hp and worse mileage because ethanol has a lower energy per volume. The ideal would be to raise the compression a little (which should be hassle free, since ethanol has a higher octane rating) and the power should be AT LEAST equal to before. In fact, converting our cars to run on 100% ethanol is a common practice amongst people who turbocharge their cars, since compression can be higher.

Er, that article has nothing to do with cars. They're talking about small engines like lawnmowers, weed whackers, leaf blowers, etc. Have you worked with them in Brazil?

[Redliner]

Originally Posted by Labcoatguy

Er, that article has nothing to do with cars. They're talking about small engines like lawnmowers, weed whackers, leaf blowers, etc. Have you worked with them in Brazil?

Er, I think the same principles apply to both kinds of engines, since they're both gasoline-powered and four-stroke.
Also, even if not that clearly, I was trying to point out that people don't need to worry about their motorcycles. They will be fine!

[Spectre]

Originally Posted by Redliner

Er, I think the same principles apply to both kinds of engines, since they're both gasoline-powered and four-stroke.
Also, even if not that clearly, I was trying to point out that people don't need to worry about their motorcycles. They will be fine!

Ethanol-laced gasoline is relatively new to the US. Thing is, a lot of small motors have carbs with gaskets, o-rings, diaphragms and other such parts made of rubber or other materials which dissolve in ethanol. This dumps goo into the fuel at the same time that the fuelling goes to heck, and it tends to be a problem. Some older motorcycles *have* had this problem. The solution is to rebuild your carb(s) and petcock with a modern rebuild kit made out of ethanol resistant materials, which is most of them these days.

Also, older cars have had issues with this; specifically elderly American cars with old carbs that haven't had a rebuild in a while.

[Redliner]

Originally Posted by Spectre

Ethanol-laced gasoline is relatively new to the US. Thing is, a lot of small motors have carbs with gaskets, o-rings, diaphragms and other such parts made of rubber or other materials which dissolve in ethanol. This dumps goo into the fuel at the same time that the fuelling goes to heck, and it tends to be a problem. Some older motorcycles *have* had this problem. The solution is to rebuild your carb(s) and petcock with a modern rebuild kit made out of ethanol resistant materials, which is most of them these days.

Also, older cars have had issues with this; specifically elderly American cars with old carbs that haven't had a rebuild in a while.

I stand corrected. Indeed it does, but I believe modern engines (as well as modern bikes and cars) must be already made with ethanol in mind because in 1994 we started importing bikes and cars and as far as I know, they're not modified because of the ethanol. I could be wrong, though.

[Ottobon]

I'm still for ethanol , even though I know we'll never have enough crops to replace our fuel, but as a replacement for high-octane blends, which don't account for much, its pretty badass. But i'd much rather they just put Toluene in it or whatever, E10 is a waste of good ethanol, we should be saving it for supercharged dragsters and high compression canyon carvers.

[Spectre]

Originally Posted by Redliner

I stand corrected. Indeed it does, but I believe modern engines (as well as modern bikes and cars) must be already made with ethanol in mind because in 1994 we started importing bikes and cars and as far as I know, they're not modified because of the ethanol. I could be wrong, though.

After about 1988, pretty much everything in the US market had ethanol-tolerant seals, hoses, and o-rings. However, that's not a certainty, as some people have gotten nasty surprises over the years that shouldn't.

The best course of action for anyone who's not sure is to simply rebuild the fuel system with new seals and hoses.

Originally Posted by Ottobon

I'm still for ethanol , even though I know we'll never have enough crops to replace our fuel, but as a replacement for high-octane blends, which don't account for much, its pretty badass.

The high-HP dragsters aren't running ethanol, they're running methanol.

And if you took the subsidies away from Ethanol, it would cost TWICE what gasoline does, per gallon, in the US.

Still a fan of ethanol? Do you like eating?

[epp_b]

Ha! I KNEW IT! Suck on that, environmentalretards!

Crap, and Manitoba has been putting 8.5% Ethanol in gasoline sold province-wide since the beginning of 2008. Curse the NDP!

[zeoniks]

Slightly off-topic. I'm all for alternative fuels, but if I have to choose between food and fuel, it'll definitely be food first.

Damn corn oil is so expensive nowadays...

[tigger]

Originally Posted by zeoniks

Slightly off-topic. I'm all for alternative fuels, but if I have to choose between food and fuel, it'll definitely be food first.

Damn corn oil is so expensive nowadays...

Corn oil? Hell, beef and beer, my two principle food groups cost ever more. I love ethanol, but if we're going to do it we need to do it right. It's stupid to use corn.

I've run E10 in a couple cars without issue, but I think I'll keep it out of my bike just to be on the safe side.

[Dr.Kamiya]

http://www.enn.com/business/article/37605

If you fill up with ethanol, every time you pull that SUV into the gas station and pump 22 gallons, you starve a poor person for six months.

[Deanodriver]

Originally Posted by Redliner

I stand corrected. Indeed it does, but I believe modern engines (as well as modern bikes and cars) must be already made with ethanol in mind because in 1994 we started importing bikes and cars and as far as I know, they're not modified because of the ethanol. I could be wrong, though.

Actually, I believe in the case of the cars Holden sends over there, they are modified for the Brazilian ethanol fuel. Wouldn't be anything too serious, mainly nickel-plated fuel lines and different fuel pumps, I'd believe.

I believe most post-unleaded (1986) cars here can run it, but mine can't.

Here's the Australian list of which cars can run E5 or E10.

http://www.fcai.com.au/publications/...l-blend-petrol

Originally Posted by Spectre

And if you took the subsidies away from Ethanol, it would cost TWICE what gasoline does, per gallon, in the US.

Still a fan of ethanol? Do you like eating?

Probably because America persists in making ethanol from corn, which is pretty inefficient. I believe Brazilian ethanol (and Australian) is made using sugarcane. I believe ethanol here is a bit cheaper, but only because there's no excise on locally produced ethanol (as opposed to about 38 cents a litre on petrol).

[Karoug]

Here's an interesting show about renewable energy:
Modern Marvels - Klikk it!

There's a part in it about ethanol and the difference between corn and sugarcanes.
It's interesting.

[Spectre]

Oh, no argument that sugarcane is a much more efficient way to make ethanol.

The problem is that what would then happen is that instead of planting corn for us to burn, farmers would then plant sugarcane (supply and demand) and we'd still have the same problem of food costs going up.