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Thread: Even Hippies Won't Buy Battery Electric Vehicles!

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    Even Hippies Won't Buy Battery Electric Vehicles!

    Courtesy of the Silicon Valley Mercury News:

    Running out of juice: Bay Area electric car dealerships close
    By Janis Mara

    Bay Area News Group

    Marc Korchin thought he had found his mission in life: to benefit the environment and save his fellow Bay Area residents money by selling zero-emission all-electric cars. Two years later, after burning through his life savings, he was forced to close his Berkeley dealership.

    And Korchin is not alone. The Bay Area's independent electric car dealerships are in perilous shape, even as electric cars are being hailed as the next big thing by major auto manufacturers. Factors including a hurting economy, lower gas prices and, most notably, the cars' own limitations.

    A number of dealerships, including Zap of Concord, Davis Electric Cars in Davis and EcoMotors in Santa Rosa, appear to have closed within the last two years or so. Ethical Approach Electric Vehicle Center of San Jose has given up selling electric cars and switched to electric off-road vehicles. ELV Motors, in Santa Clara, now markets electric bikes and motor scooters to the public and sells electric car and truck fleets to campuses, corporations and cities.

    The phenomenon extends to dealers of conventional brands who offer electric cars on the side. Anthony Batarse, head of the otherwise-thriving Lloyd Wise dealership in Oakland, purchased 10 electric cars in 2008, sold only three and ceased selling the cars. Alameda's O'Connell Electric, the electric division of successful dealership O'Connell Volvo, is barely surviving, said owner Mike O'Connell.

    "From the beginning, they were doomed," said Will Beckett, vice president of the Central Coast chapter of the Electric Auto Association.

    It didn't seem like that at first, at least for a brief shining period in 2007 when companies like Ethical Approach and Korchin's Green Motors opened. Especially after the price of gas hit $4.45 a gallon in the Bay Area in June 2008.

    In those days, every time Korchin stopped his 11-foot-long, green, 1,200-pound Zenn electric car at a traffic light, people would swarm the Berkeley resident. "What kind of car is this? How does it work?"

    Since then, gas prices have plummeted $1.41 a gallon in the Bay Area, to $3.04. Now that a stop at the gas station poses less of a hit to the wallet, a big incentive is gone.

    The cars' own drawbacks are part of the problem. Unlike the soon-to-be-released, freeway-ready Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf, most of the electric cars currently for sale are low-speed neighborhood electric vehicles.

    Neither the Toronto-made Zenn or Santa Rosa-based Zap, the two electric cars most commonly sold in the Bay Area, go very far without a charge. The Zenn, which sells for around $15,000, can't go more than 25 mph; the Zap, which costs around $10,000, 35 mph.

    "You can't take them on the freeway. That's why Marc Korchin and his ilk went out of business," said Ed Thorpe, past president of the East Bay chapter of the Electric Auto Association.

    "People would come to my dealership and they would see what the car would and wouldn't do," said Korchin. "I'd say, 'Don't you want to help save the planet?' They'd say, 'Let someone else save the planet. I want something with good speed.' "

    Dealers tried to sell the vehicles as second cars for use around town, but when the economy crashed, so did the number of people who could afford two cars.

    In contrast, the much-ballyhooed Nissan Leaf, scheduled for delivery in December of this year, goes up to 90 mph and around 100 miles between charges. The equally touted Chevy Volt, a plug-in gas/electric vehicle, goes up to 100 mph and 40 miles between charges, and is scheduled for full availability in 2011.

    Nissan isn't saying, but the Leaf price will probably be in the $25,000 to $30,000 range; the Volt is expected to retail for around $35,000.

    As motorists clamor to buy these freeway-ready electric cars, "neighborhood electric vehicles will return to their natural niche: fleets for corporations, airports or university campuses where the speed limit is low anyway," said Sherry Boschert, co-founder of California-based Plug In America, a national electric vehicle advocacy group.

    Along those lines, Doug Schwartz, founder of Santa Clara's ELV Motors, now sells neighborhood electric vehicles to companies like Google and Apple for use on their campuses. "We have managed to find a niche we can hang on to," Schwartz said.

    Santa Rosa's Zap appears to be going in a similar direction; the company is currently competing to build a new version of the U.S. Postal Service's light transport truck. On the other hand, the Toronto-based Zenn Motor Co., one of the major independent electric car manufacturers, has ceased production of its neighborhood electric vehicles altogether.

    "For a small firm like Zap or Zenn to make vehicles has never been very successful," said Tom Turrentine, director of the Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicle Center at the University of California-Davis. "The automotive field is one in which it's virtually impossible for the little guy to make it."

    Though neighborhood vehicles may be losing the David and Goliath battle, there is at least one relatively small electric car manufacturer with a good chance of surviving, Turrentine said: San Carlos-based Tesla.

    "Tesla is very innovative and is attracting lots of money, though the scale is still nothing like what major manufacturers operate with," Turrentine said.
    So, even the hippies won't buy the battery electric vehicles they want to foist off on the rest of us!
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    "I'd say, 'Don't you want to help save the planet?' They'd say, 'Let someone else save the planet. I want something with good speed.' "



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    See? We're not totally retarded here in California. There aren't even THAT many Priuses around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadCat360 View Post
    There aren't even THAT many Priuses around.
    Let's be honest here...there's a shitload.
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    Well what were they selling? The Zenn and Zap? Never heard of them, so they probably weren't very good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FATMOUSE View Post
    Let's be honest here...there's a shitload.
    There's shitloads of them everywhere in the world.

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    Did they stop selling the FCX Clarity or something? I mean that is the best damn idea ever, it works like a normal ass car, you fill it up at the pump, it goes normal speed, it can be refueled quickly. Why in the world are people even bothering with the BEV idea?

    Oh right I forgot, you need power to make H and power has to come from something and since the US is fucking retarded and doesn't understand "nukular" power we can't have plants that could produce power all the time and be used to hydrocrack off peak. Hell there is even a tech that allows for H extraction from fucking sewage and requires less power than conventional hydrocracking.

    Sorry early morning and BEV's piss me the fuck off.

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    The Honda Clarity is a lease-only vehicle and with an estimated pricetag of $2 million a pop (according to LA Times) it's unlikely to ever go on sale.
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    ^The only reason its so expensive is because they do not have economies of scale. If you are cranking out 4-3mil a year the price will go down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by prizrak View Post
    ^The only reason its so expensive is because they do not have economies of scale. If you are cranking out 4-3mil a year the price will go down.

    yess, then it will go down to 100.000 bucks.....I would gladly pay that for a japanese smugmobile with unproven technology

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    It would, a bit. But it is still new tech compared to a electric engines and batterys while it also adds another step in the distribution process, building a new infrastructure to support hydrogen. With electrics it's only necessary to increase power output and upgrade the existing infrastructure.

    I would be happy if hydrogen would go mainstream, but I am betting that electrics will be adopted sooner and then the interest for hydrogen will die off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AiR View Post
    Well what were they selling? The Zenn and Zap? Never heard of them, so they probably weren't very good.
    They're glorified golf carts. I can see why no one is buying them. A good bicycle is a whole lot cheaper and would get you around nearly as fast.
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    I know of people who swear that the Zenn is the greatest thing ever and were shocked that the company stopped selling it and is on its way out of business (though some blamed local governments for being "short sighted" for not letting the unsafe little shitbox on the road). They didn't really grasp that it was a slow golf cart that, at best, annoyed other road users and at worst was extremely unsafe.

    I always appreciated the cynical attitude behind these things - call it green and idiots will buy anything - but I'm glad they're gone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AiR View Post
    I would be happy if hydrogen would go mainstream, but I am betting that electrics will be adopted sooner and then the interest for hydrogen will die off.
    A lot of gas stations would willingly convert if it means staying in business.
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    I've only seen two prius's in real life ever. Yet alone a fully electric car of any kind, and I'd probably buy one because I only exceed 70kph once or twice per year.

    But I guess in California and many other places there arent enough people like me.
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    California's moving toward hydrogen anyway. http://www.hydrogenhighway.ca.gov ...Anyone think this will ever mean anything to anyone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Night_Hawk View Post
    I've only seen two prius's in real life ever. Yet alone a fully electric car of any kind, and I'd probably buy one because I only exceed 70kph once or twice per year.

    But I guess in California and many other places there arent enough people like me.
    What the flying fuck are you doing on a carforum? The ecomorons forum is third server on the right .....

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    Quote Originally Posted by prizrak View Post
    Oh right I forgot, you need power to make H and power has to come from something and since the US is fucking retarded and doesn't understand "nukular" power we can't have plants that could produce power all the time and be used to hydrocrack off peak. Hell there is even a tech that allows for H extraction from fucking sewage and requires less power than conventional hydrocracking.
    Don't forget that you will also need to provide far more power to supply all the electric vehicles charging after rush hour. I bet those 330V/30A fast charging stations will be a nice burden on the power grid.

    Didn't California already have rolling brownouts?
    Last edited by DarkReaper; March 8th, 2010 at 3:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Night_Hawk View Post
    I've only seen two prius's in real life ever. Yet alone a fully electric car of any kind, and I'd probably buy one because I only exceed 70kph once or twice per year.

    But I guess in California and many other places there arent enough people like me.
    I see a lot of them over here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy View Post
    yess, then it will go down to 100.000 bucks.....I would gladly pay that for a japanese smugmobile with unproven technology
    The only part that's unproven is the hydrogen fuel cell, and that's actually relatively simple. Also, the FCX seems to be more car than envirowacko toy, so I'd buy into the tech.

    Quote Originally Posted by AiR View Post
    It would, a bit. But it is still new tech compared to a electric engines and batterys while it also adds another step in the distribution process, building a new infrastructure to support hydrogen. With electrics it's only necessary to increase power output and upgrade the existing infrastructure.

    I would be happy if hydrogen would go mainstream, but I am betting that electrics will be adopted sooner and then the interest for hydrogen will die off.
    I would be happy as well, but electrics (IMHO) are going to continue to be hampered by the traditional battery limitations on range and long recharge times. There is no sign that this is really going to change any time soon, either.

    Electrics are also going to be hamstrung by the fact that we don't even begin to have the infrastructure (generation or transmission) to handle the additional demands that an all-electric or even large-minority-electric fleet is going to place on it.

    The only way electric is ever going to take off is if the government mandates it and nothing else. Which, judging by this administration's ecostupidity, is entirely possible. At which point they'll be wondering why the electrical grid keeps collapsing.


    Quote Originally Posted by argatoga View Post
    A lot of gas stations would willingly convert if it means staying in business.
    Exactly, and a gas station is a lot easier to rerig for hydrogen duty as it already has a commercial electric feed; in some cases several. It also has a water feed.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanBlue View Post
    California's moving toward hydrogen anyway. http://www.hydrogenhighway.ca.gov ...Anyone think this will ever mean anything to anyone?
    Not unless they get their heads out of their rectums out there. See below.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkReaper View Post
    Don't forget that you will also need to provide far more power to supply all the electric vehicles charging after rush hour. I bet those 330V/30A fast charging stations will be a nice burden on the power grid.

    Didn't California already have rolling brownouts?
    CA already has rolling blackouts sometimes. They also won't do things like 'upgrade the infrastructure' because it might 'hurt the environment' or 'unfairly discommode poor people.'

    This would also be why they freak out about everything; they evidently require some ridiculous amount of permitting and public hearings before a fuel station can offer hydrogen, too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Night_Hawk View Post
    I've only seen two prius's in real life ever. Yet alone a fully electric car of any kind, and I'd probably buy one because I only exceed 70kph once or twice per year.

    But I guess in California and many other places there arent enough people like me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy View Post
    What the flying fuck are you doing on a carforum? The ecomorons forum is third server on the right .....
    He's partially excused; he lives in the back of beyond on a rocky island in the Atlantic Ocean that only has one highway. Said highway does not appear to have any long stretches of straight road, either. He probably doesn't get up to 70kph much because he can't, generally, not without driving off a cliff or something.

    To borrow a phrase from a short-lived NBC TV series: "Where does he think he's going to go? We're on an island."
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