GM: Neener Neener we keep Opel, fuck you European governments!

[matyas]

Haha....German elections are over, now they are firing 10,000. Coincidence?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8343517.stm

[Dr_Grip]

Originally Posted by matyas

Haha....German elections are over, now they are firing 10,000. Coincidence?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8343517.stm

No. Plain and simple, no.

[AiR]

Originally Posted by WillDAQ

Now that's insane.

It's not insane, Opel workers council or IG Metall or whoever was of course informed ahead of what was going to happen.

GM seems to think they can get away with getting more loans from European goverments. Not. A. Chance. In. Hell. Let's hope this marks the beginning of the exit of GM from Europe.

[NooDle]

from the sounds of it, it also means that the Antwerp plant will be the first one to close down
- 5000 jobs here already

next on the list are 2 German plants. great success GM!

Also, the Antwerp plant is the most productive one of all (biggest amounts of cars/employee).
Still, it costs monies, so we'll close it down

[MacGuffin]

What makes me really angry now, is that almost everyone involved is now saying that they didn't see that coming.

Liars and idiots. Great to know they run our country

[argatoga]

Originally Posted by MacGuffin

Liars and idiots. Great to know they run our country

Good thing I live in the US ... oh crap.

[Cobol74]

They say 600 - my arse, UK will take a plant hit I bet you - cheapest place to loose workers except maybe Poland.

[WillDAQ]

Originally Posted by AiR

GM seems to think they can get away with getting more loans from European goverments. Not. A. Chance. In. Hell.

To be honest this is the perfect time for the UK to chip in some cash, as long as they can get a legally binding jobs guarantee in place before handing over the cash.

[Cobol74]

Not allowed under EU law, probablly could just get a 'promise' to do it - as the Germans found out.

If I was Mercle I'd be going "Wtf we pay all this money in, and get this crap! That's not what we signed up for!".

[AiR]

Then the EU comes along and says naughty naughty boy.

[Dr_Grip]

*laughs* The spokesperson of IG Metall, the union responsible for Opel's german workforce, blames GM's demise and all the bad things to come for Opel on "government-controlled socialism" ("Staatssozialismus") that destroys GM - just a few months after his union demanded bailouts and even a nationalisation of Opel from the german goverment.

Source: http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unt...659552,00.html

I've always been a union man but this just takes it too far. Who is going to take these guys serious ever again?

[MacGuffin]

Originally Posted by Dr_Grip

*laughs* The spokesperson of IG Metall, the union responsible for Opel's german workforce, blames GM's demise and all the bad things to come for Opel on "government-controlled socialism" ("Staatssozialismus") that destroys GM - just a few months after his union demanded bailouts and even a nationalisation of Opel from the german goverment.

Source: http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unt...659552,00.html

I've always been a union man but this just takes it too far. Who is going to take these guys serious ever again?

Have you see the "experts" discussion on Phoenix yesterday? I couldn't bare watching it to the end.

Not only was it boring like hell but also those "experts" showed no more insight into the reality of the situation, than anyone else.

Somehow at some point, however, there seems to have been some unwritten or unspoken agreement, that Opel must be saved now, and everyone was quite sure that somehow that was still possible.

Yeah... right.

I believe you can become a better expert than them on the matter, just by reading this forum.

Edit: Soooo... General Motors wants to clean up the European Opel/Vauxall branch with... Americans!

(pausing for effect)

They already fired European boss Carl-Peter Forster and are to replace him with Nick Reilly. And the control of it all will be handed over to... Bob Lutz. Yes, the one who is/was responsible for the disastrous European model policy in the first way.

Opel really needs some divine help now. Because one thing that can be learned from the past is, that American car managers are incompetent already for their own country but even more incompetent when it comes to understanding the European market.

[AudiV6]

You dont have any idea how it sucks to be fired, dont you? Well I know, Its not that I didnt know how it felts, I know it very well indeed and its even worse when it happens before Christmas. If Opel doesnt deserve to exist anymore, fine, but it would be very sorry for the 10k workers all over europe, and 10,000 Workers are alot of people!

[Cobol74]

It does suck to be 'let go' - I know first hand. The organisation has to survive, the only people who can get the management out right at the top are the shareholders. It is they who can boot these incompetents out, and get some good managers in.

Unfortunately - and I go with Spectre on this - if the government is the major shareholder they probably do not know good management if they ran over it in an unpopular GM SUV.

Over here one of the things the government do is to willfully mis understand the business model any organisation that they 'take over'/'rescue' and later privatise - BL and Unipart are examples.

[MacGuffin]

Originally Posted by AudiV6

You dont have any idea how it sucks to be fired, dont you? Well I know, Its not that I didnt know how it felts, I know it very well indeed and its even worse when it happens before Christmas. If Opel doesnt deserve to exist anymore, fine, but it would be very sorry for the 10k workers all over europe, and 10,000 Workers are alot of people!

Being fired can happen to anyone, who works in a company that is present on the free markets. It is -- and I know it sounds harsh -- a risk in life you just have to accept.

Opel is in a grief situation, because it failed as a company. There is no reason why it should be granted an exception, because Opel is such a traditional company. The naked truth is: Opel isn't system relevant. The world and the markets can happily live without it.

Opel didn't make the right cars at the right time and lost more and more ground to its competitors to a point, where no car model was competitive anymore.

You can blame the evil GM management for that but if you see how much Opel workers identify themselves with their company and how proud they are of the work they do (even when the cars became shit), they might as well share some of the blame.

My sympathy is limited. I'm more like a "get on with your life instead of complaining" guy. It's not like anyone will starve or has to sell their children, you know. Every Opel worker will fall into a cozy social net. If Opel should really go bust, there will be social plans to catch them up.

There are harder fates than getting a bit poorer in one of the richest countries in the world.

[AudiV6]

Richest country huh? You think the country with one of the highest debt-rate is rich? I can only tell that those workless workers of the future are going to be paid by me and YOU! Thats the reality, not the state is going to pay them, WE ARE! And you might say they falling into an social net, yea if you mean Hartz IV, its really hard to find a job these day, this is why I gave up searching and started my own business, but I had capital and knowledge to do that, however many of those workers DONT have!

As I said, if they cant keep the brand, then at least they should save most the workers. And antoher thing;
You cannot blame the workers for producing "not so good cars" you can only blame GM for that!

[MacGuffin]

Originally Posted by AudiV6

Richest country huh? You think the country with one of the highest debt-rate is rich? I can only tell that those workless workers of the future are going to be paid by me and YOU!

That's a bit of a distorted view. All Opel workers paid for their unemployment insurance and have a right for support, when they are losing their job. As would you, if you'd lose yours.

Why do you think we all pay for unemployment insurance?

Originally Posted by AudiV6

You cannot blame the workers for producing "not so good cars" you can only blame GM for that!

You can be blamed, if you think you are doing a good job, when you simply don't. As I see it, Opel workers were proud even of the old Astras and Vectras. I have never heard an Opel worker say "Man, we're making shitty cars". On the contrary. They always went "We are so much better than VW but are being treated so unfairly by the customers and reviewers".

So when there has been no self-criticism, they can also take at least some of the blame.



Edit: Just found this. The man speaks the truth.

GM's about-face has angered both Opel workers and European governments. In an interview with SPIEGEL ONLINE, union leader and Opel board member Armin Schild blasts GM for mismanagement and says that the US company is uninterested in saving the Opel brand.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Mr. Schild, General Motors has decided not to sell Opel after all, preferring to restructure the German automaker itself. What do Opel employees think of the plan?

Armin Schild: GM is going to continue pursuing company policies that have already led to the firm's decline over the last 20 years. Pressure on the employees and on the government, however, will become more intense.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: What do you think GM will demand?

Schild: GM will ask for the same amount of support that the government already promised to Magna. In return, they will come up with a restructuring plan which, at first glance, looks a lot like the one Magna proposed. But closer study reveals that it does not actually contain what you would expect. The existence of the Opel brand has been put in danger. At the very least, it has been intentionally damaged.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: What are the differences between the two plans?

Schild: GM speaks of 10,000 jobs that are to be eliminated. Magna spoke of a similar number. But the Magna plan avoided factory closures and layoffs -- job elimination can also be achieved by way of not replacing workers who retire or leave of their own volition. The GM bosses want to close a number of facilities and turn masses of workers onto the streets. There is a major difference between the abstract elimination of 10,000 jobs and concrete measures to fire 10,000 workers.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Experts say there are advantages to closing entire factories as opposed to thinning out the entire workforce.

Schild: Magna's strategy foresaw spreading the job losses among all Opel facilities. But that is not the same thing as thinning out the entire workforce. The point was to be able to utilize the existing production capacities. The point was to pursue a new strategy aimed at increasing market share through the introduction of new models, the creation of niche products and entering new markets.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: But GM is also interested in selling cars.

Schild: The last 20 years have shown that GM managers pay more attention to profits than to the number of vehicles sold -- and as such have paid less attention to developing innovative, more competitive products. Everyone could see the results of this strategy at Opel. They never fully took advantage of the know-how of their engineers nor did they use the brand's technological potential. Instead, the focus on saving money ruined the brand -- new models were only introduced once managers were certain that they would produce the maximum amount of profit. But that never really worked and it won't work in the future. Since the bankruptcy, not a single new GM model has been introduced.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: In other words, you think the fault lies with the management of GM?

Schild: The problem has to do with the structures and the fundamental course charted by the bankrupt giant GM. The flow of information from one level of the hierarchy to the next reminds one of socialism, in which successes were claimed even as failure was evident to all.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Do you think that GM will invest in Opel?

Schild: Take a look at the amount that GM wants to lay on the table. It is around $3 billion, much less than what Magna intended to invest. There are, of course, things that one can do with that much money. But creating a forward-looking strategy, which includes entering new markets, won't be possible -- and it also isn't the intention.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: What does that mean for the Opel brand?

Schild: The Opel brand won't have much of a chance to survive in the coming years, given the intense competition in the automobile industry. The entire sector is facing a global overcapacity of 30 percent. Those who don't energetically defend and solidify their position will lose the race. Opel could very well be fighting its final battle. And it is one that can't be won with the kind of minimal approach currently being planned by GM.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: You seem to give the GM managers no credit at all. Working together with them is sure to be difficult.

Schild: Of course the situation is an emotional one at the moment. Especially when one sees from up close how workers are being strung along and cheated out of their futures. Still, I think it is wrong to pass sweeping judgement against the GM management. Some at GM were surely aware that a cooperation with Magna represented an excellent opportunity. But it's not for nothing that the entire workforce and the governments of a number of European countries are angry with GM.

Interview conducted by Michael Kröger

Source: http://www.spiegel.de/international/...659721,00.html

[AudiV6]

Originally Posted by MacGuffin

That's a bit of a distorted view. All Opel workers paid for their unemployment insurance and have a right for support, then they are losing their job.

Why do you think we all pay for unemployment insurance?

Do you think the insurance will last for ever?

Originally Posted by MacGuffin

You can be blamed, if you think you are doing a good job, when you simply don't. As I see it, Opel workers were proud even of the old Astras and Vectras. I have never heard an Opel worker say "Man, we're making shitty cars". On the contrary. They always went "We are so much better than VW but are being treated so unfairly by the customers and reviewers".

So when there has been no self-criticism, they can also take at least some of the blame.

So what you're saying is just the old VW-Guy sort of view, that VW made the best cars back then and Opel where total crap, as I remember the guy who was responsible for the quality-problems in Opel, called "Mr Lopez", went to VW and cutted there some corners, which is why there are less mk3 golfs out there as mk2's by saving costs on the preservations.

The reason why Opel's parts became so rubbish is because GM only allowed to buy parts from really cheap makers like for instance those poorly made cast iron outtake manifolds on Ecotects, which came probably from china or those cheap plastics, I never heard of any Opel, that was sent back with a complain that somethings not correctly put together!

The Opel workers are just nailing the Parts togehter, they dont made them.

Your problem is just, its is a "Opel".

Sure I changed to Audi because they build cars with higher quality standards, but Opel could do that for sure as well if GM wasnt such an huge lumb of cost saving idiots, the Insignia is a brilliant car!

[MacGuffin]

Originally Posted by AudiV6

Sure I changed to Audi because they build cars with higher quality standards, but Opel could do that for sure as well if GM wasnt such an huge lumb of cost saving idiots, the Insignia is a brilliant car!

Yes, but the guys responsible for the Insignia (and the new Astra) are just being fired...

[AudiV6]

Originally Posted by MacGuffin

Yes, but the guys responsible for the Insignia (and the new Astra) are just being fired...

Because of GM! It doesnt matter anymore what they build, the only thing now is just saving workplaces, as long as they could!