Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating on the 'Ring

[NooDle]

Originally Posted by Spectre

Same driver for both - and despite the fact that the GT-R wasn't hammered balls to the wall because it was brand new and just off the boat (plus it belonged to someone else), on the first lap out, it was already faster than the best of the 911 Turbo's laps by a second.

Stick a fork in the 911 Turbo, it's done.

I think the driver just couldn't drive a Porsche properly

[jackernapes]

Well, despite all the lap-time "auto"-fellatio going back and forth in this thread, I still contend that the GT-R is crap: Who needs real world dependability when you get crazy performance numbers...maybe once...or twice...><

This is the reason I will do my darnedest to never own any car that doesn't come with manual transmission, and where you can't turn electronic nannies COMPLETELY OFF without pissing off the manufacturer.

I've heard it put best something like this: "I ride my motorcycle with complete confidence, but I'm nervous about riding a horse. Why? Because with the bike, its all my input going directly into the machine. Riding a horse, you have your input going into the horse's brain, getting jumbled around, and if you did everything right maybe it comes out the other end. I simply don't want a second "brain" changing my decisions for me."

Now personally, I believe traction and stability control can help when it comes to everyday driving, mostly in tricky conditions, but PLEASE at least give me the choice to leave the computers off my track!

[Disciple]

Originally Posted by jackernapes

Well, despite all the lap-time "auto"-fellatio going back and forth in this thread, I still contend that the GT-R is crap: Who needs real world dependability when you get crazy performance numbers...maybe once...or twice...><

This is the reason I will do my darnedest to never own any car that doesn't come with manual transmission, and where you can't turn electronic nannies COMPLETELY OFF without pissing off the manufacturer.

I've heard it put best something like this: "I ride my motorcycle with complete confidence, but I'm nervous about riding a horse. Why? Because with the bike, its all my input going directly into the machine. Riding a horse, you have your input going into the horse's brain, getting jumbled around, and if you did everything right maybe it comes out the other end. I simply don't want a second "brain" changing my decisions for me."

Now personally, I believe traction and stability control can help when it comes to everyday driving, mostly in tricky conditions, but PLEASE at least give me the choice to leave the computers off my track!

This makes no sense. You can turn all the computers off in the GTR I believe. And it won't void your warranty if you do.

[Spectre]

Originally Posted by MacGuffin

Wrong. The 260, 280 and 300 were sold here. And did so quite well. Although they were never taken seriously of course.



It is that kind of denial that put the USA in the current trouble in the first place. The current crisis was made in the USA but we all have to pay the price. Let's not forget that.

That aside, consider these two statements:

1. "Well, it's just a Nissan" - pictures pop up in your head of the Sunny, the Cherry, the Primera or the Micra and your school teachers driving them *shivers*

2. "Well, it's just a Porsche" - pictures pop up in your head of the 356, the 911, the 928 and... wait... shit!

Do you get the point?

Call me a snob if you want, but you cannot argue that away.

We never got the Micra or the Cherry. The Sunny was at least badged as something else here and was only sold and marketed as basic transport, not "cheap and cheerful" (I agree with Clarkson, no such thing). My school teachers didn't drive Nissans. They usually drove old American boats, not being smart enough to buy something imported, even used.

"It's a Nissan" conjures up images of their Baja racing successes with their trucks, their famous asskicking of BMW in the SCCA race series with the 510, their "cheaper, better and faster than the Corvette" turbo Z cars (which were also faster than most Porsches, plus their legendary reliability.

"It's a Porsche" conjures up images of fast-ish cars that cost a fortune to keep and run (remember the cheap Porsche challenge), disappointments/ripoffs like the 914 and 924, and maintenance nightmares like the 928, plus black holes for money like the 944. Then there's the Bug in 911 clothing that was the 912 disappointment. No, the Porsche name is not generally known in the US for flawless engineering.

As for the financial disaster - true, the seeds started here, back with the Euro-centric Jimmy Carter's idiotic CRA, but history has proven that the US economy is better able to ride such problems out. Plus, I notice all the scrambling going on over ther to try to match the financial safeguards that the US has had since the 1930s. I mean, the US has insured all bank deposits from then... yet only NOW are you Europeans implementing that, and only after the mass capital flight has started.

The last time we had a global meltdown, the US went into a moderate depression, which became the Great Depression due to crop failures. You Europeans just completely melted down, elected demogogues, slaughtered most of the Jews, and started a World War. I'd say that historically, we're better able to weather the shocks...

[jackernapes]

Originally Posted by Disciple

This makes no sense. You can turn all the computers off in the GTR I believe. And it won't void your warranty if you do.

According to that article I linked to, turning off the GT-R's VDC can void the warranty.

I will admit, it does sound like the guy who bought the car did a lot of things that he wasn't supposed to do, and Nissan is probably right to void his warranty for many reasons.

HOWEVER, Nissan claims that they voided his warranty because he turned off the VDC multiple times. That's just unreasonable in my book.

[Spectre]

Actually, Nissan's follow up is that turning off VDC doesn't void the warranty; turning VDC off, THEN using launch control repeatedly THEN blowing up the gearbox will void your warranty.

Let me remind the "Porsche = Prestige" people about Porsche's *other* products:





They're not even very good tractors. Ford and Deere made better ones, by far.

Originally Posted by NooDle

I think the driver just couldn't drive a Porsche properly

He wasn't a GT-R specialist driver either. So that evens out...

[jackernapes]

Originally Posted by Spectre

Actually, Nissan's follow up is that turning off VDC doesn't void the warranty; turning VDC off, THEN using launch control repeatedly THEN blowing up the gearbox will void your warranty.

Let me remind the "Porsche = Prestige" people about Porsche's *other* products:





They're not even very good tractors. Ford and Deere made better ones, by far.


He wasn't a GT-R specialist driver either. So that evens out...

Bahahaha! Nice!

But really, I'm not that much of a Porsche-uh fan myself (and obviously not a GT-R fan either), I just can't stand people to get so worked up over terribly over-hyped cars, ESPECIALLY with the GT-R.

Then again, I can't really talk since my current mode of transportation has two wheels and eats burgers for fuel

But there is one thing I have learned from my years with bicycles that comes into play here. When you're buying a bike, it is commonly said that 3 factors are most desired: Low weight (or for cars, high power to weight ratio), low price, and high quality. Now...pick two...

[Spectre]

Personally, if I'm going to go that fast... I'm buying a supersport motorcycle, pocketing the $50,000-$100,000 difference, and laughing my arse off as I blow both the 911 Turbo and the GT-R into the weeds without the need for launch control. Examples: Honda RC51 SP2, 0-60, 2.5 seconds. 2008 Suzuki Hayabusa, 0-60, 2.81.


Yeah... I'll be taking the bike, thanks.

[jackernapes]

Originally Posted by Spectre

Personally, if I'm going to go that fast... I'm buying a supersport motorcycle, pocketing the $50,000-$100,000 difference, and laughing my arse off as I blow both the 911 Turbo and the GT-R into the weeds without the need for launch control.

I concur good sir!

[fbc]

Originally Posted by Spectre

Personally, if I'm going to go that fast... I'm buying a supersport motorcycle, pocketing the $50,000-$100,000 difference, and laughing my arse off as I blow both the 911 Turbo and the GT-R into the weeds without the need for launch control. Examples: Honda RC51 SP2, 0-60, 2.5 seconds. 2008 Suzuki Hayabusa, 0-60, 2.81.


Yeah... I'll be taking the bike, thanks.

And the 'ring time for a Hayabusa would be?

[Spectre]

Nobody's run the new Busa and posted their times that I've seen, and the old Busa was a pig despite its speed. Ghost Rider took his old turbo Busa out and did an 8:20, but he clearly had too much power and not enough tire.

However, the RC51 guys routinely post low 7s now, IIRC. Well, the braver ones, anyway.

On the other hand, here's a literbike (GSX-R1000K7) turning in a respectable 7:35 on the ring:

+ YouTube Video

[fbc]

^ Whoa, high 6's, on the 'ring, on a bike? That takes nutter to a whole new level.

Edit: Even a low 7 is nuts - I suspect there's a healthy lack-of-imagination going on in their heads.

[Nocturnal]

I was talking to a marshall there last month who hit an 8.20BTG time on a public day with roadworks (1km) on a chap we were drinking with's Yamaha R1. He had also been given a race-test bike to aim for the bike-lap record, which IIRC stood at around the 7.25 barrier. He didn't crack it the week we were there, but I'll see if I can get in touch with him again to find out how he got on.

[Spectre]

Originally Posted by fbc

^ Whoa, high 6's, on the 'ring, on a bike? That takes nutter to a whole new level.

I corrected the error - the guys claiming high 6s were unsubstantiated. Sorry.

And they're braver than I am. When I went to the Ring a while back on a Fireblade, I took it slow and played tourist. Best 15 minute ride to date.

[Nocturnal]

Originally Posted by Spectre

And they're braver than I am. When I went to the Ring a while back on a Fireblade, I took it slow and played tourist. Best 15 minute ride to date.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that, I wish there were more bikers like you out there! I've got a vid of a friends lap from last month, with a German on a 600 Ninja actually weaving in front of our car for over 6km to stop us getting past. We eventually took him at the Karussel purely because he went wide.

[fbc]

Originally Posted by Nocturnal

I was talking to a marshall there last month who hit an 8.20BTG time on a public day with roadworks (1km) on a chap we were drinking with's Yamaha R1. He had also been given a race-test bike to aim for the bike-lap record, which IIRC stood at around the 7.25 barrier. He didn't crack it the week we were there, but I'll see if I can get in touch with him again to find out how he got on.

8:20 for a road bikes sound more reasonable. I know the bike will leave the car behind for acceleration, but under brakes & cornering the car would come into it's own. Yes, I know this is the age-old bike vs car debate - I don't really mean to fire that one up.

[Nocturnal]

Exactly. A lot of my family are into bikes, as are friends and my partners family, and I always get the ribbing about how they dont want me to be holding them up on the way to places. But on a decent stretch of B-road, or most visibly a roundabout, even my little hairdressing machine will leave them for dead.

Bikes are exhilirating, and bat-shit fast in a straight line. But cornering fast on one takes a whole new level of balls, and you'll note most people just back off and talk-big in the pub later. It's understandable, if I crash, its likely I'll get out and just feel like a tit. If they crash, their head is the crumple zone, and they'll probably die.

Bikes are the biggest reason I love, and also the biggest reason I hate the 'Ring.

[Spectre]

I was just looking around at the barriers, the traffic, the road conditions, the carnage getting carted out when I got there and thought; "wow, I need to slow it down more than 'highway normal speed' around here."

I also wonder why the Germans never seem to have discovered the "safer barriers" concept for the place, given how "health and safety" conscious Europe seems to be in general.

That said, I avoid running a bike flat out in areas where I haven't walked the track/path ahead of time to check for nasty surprises - mostly from having wound up either sliding off the road on my butt or upside down in a hedge/ditch or bouncing off the large stone wall a few times when I was younger.

Originally Posted by fbc

I know the bike will leave the car behind for acceleration, but under brakes & cornering the car would come into it's own. Yes, I know this is the age-old bike vs car debate - I don't really mean to fire that one up.

Not necessarily true any more. The new tire and brake technologies showing up in the supersport bikes now go a long way towards eliminating the car's advantage. A lot more is now down to the operator's skill rather than any deficiencies in the bike.

For an example, see this FifthGear video:

+ YouTube Video

Pro racer in the car vice a journalist on the bike - bike wins, on a fairly tight course to boot.

[Karoug]

Originally Posted by Spectre

Ghost Rider took his old turbo Busa out and did an 8:20, but he clearly had too much power and not enough tire.

GR also did a run with his GSX-R1000k7 and with alot of traffic he did a sub 8 min lap..

[fbc]

Originally Posted by Spectre

I also wonder why the Germans never seem to have discovered the "safer barriers" concept for the place, given how "health and safety" conscious Europe seems to be in general.

Heh, you could argue that about the entire 'ring - it's ~21km where Germany forgets it's German.

Originally Posted by Spectre

Pro racer in the car vice a journalist on the bike - bike wins, on a tight course to boot.

You could argue that a tight course is going to favour the bike - short, sharp bursts of acceleration, lower average speed meaning shorter braking distances, slower corner speed reducing any cornering advantage the car may have had etc.