Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating on the 'Ring

[MacGuffin]

Originally Posted by Spectre

As for the financial disaster - true, the seeds started here, back with the Euro-centric Jimmy Carter's idiotic CRA, but history has proven that the US economy is better able to ride such problems out. Plus, I notice all the scrambling going on over ther to try to match the financial safeguards that the US has had since the 1930s. I mean, the US has insured all bank deposits from then... yet only NOW are you Europeans implementing that, and only after the mass capital flight has started.

The last time we had a global meltdown, the US went into a moderate depression, which became the Great Depression due to crop failures. You Europeans just completely melted down, elected demogogues, slaughtered most of the Jews, and started a World War. I'd say that historically, we're better able to weather the shocks...

You know about cars. So stick with it and don't embarrass yourself with such rubbish.

[Spectre]

I'm generalizing about as much about history as you do about "prestige".

Still, I'm watching the media from both continents, and it seems that there's entirely more panic going on over there than there is over here. And the financial institutions' panic is quite interesting to watch - or are these blogs incorrect?

http://econoblog101.wordpress.com/2008/09/28/420/

http://lifewithouthobbes.wordpress.c...d-of-the-road/

[Hercules286]

Originally Posted by MacGuffin

Wrong. The 260, 280 and 300 were sold here. And did so quite well. Although they were never taken seriously of course.



It is that kind of denial that put the USA in the current trouble in the first place. The current crisis was made in the USA but we all have to pay the price. Let's not forget that.

That aside, consider these two statements:

1. "Well, it's just a Nissan" - pictures pop up in your head of the Sunny, the Cherry, the Primera or the Micra and your school teachers driving them *shivers*

2. "Well, it's just a Porsche" - pictures pop up in your head of the 356, the 911, the 928 and... wait... shit!

Do you get the point?

Call me a snob if you want, but you cannot argue that away.

Now you're just being shallow.

[MacGuffin]

Originally Posted by petarkb

Now you're just being shallow.

Sometimes the truth is shallow

[NooDle]

I dunno how it is over in Americaland, but when someone says "Nissan" I immediately think Micra, and not the new nice looking one either, more like the old boxy crappy one.

We did get the Z cars but they were always a bit of a outsider to other sportscars.

On the other hand, whenever someone says "Porsche" I immediately think 911. come to think of it I find a hard time thinking of *any* Porsche that was crap.

the Gt-R, as amazing as it is, is just not on the radar in Europe, not even now with all the shit going on

[Nocturnal]

Originally Posted by MacGuffin

You know about cars. So stick with it and don't embarrass yourself with such rubbish.

In fairness, there are elements of truth in what he says. History, especially financial history, goes in cycles. The last time were in a situation similar to this, was indeed in the 30's, and we managed to get out of it thanks to the Second Great War. The US, notions of heroism aside, joined in for two very good reasons. Their economy was already on death row, and they needed European reparation money from Europe to help get it back on its feet again, and feared we wouldn't be able to pay. Furthermore, it would benefit from the industrial boost thanks to the war effort.

Why do you think the UK/US jumped straight into the Russia/Georgia crisis? To save those poor Georgians?

[Karoug]

Originally Posted by fbc

You could argue that a tight course is going to favour the bike - short, sharp bursts of acceleration, lower average speed meaning shorter braking distances, slower corner speed reducing any cornering advantage the car may have had etc.

Anyone who has driven a superbike knows they are pigs on tight tracks, on the closest track from where i live i'm faster on my Husaberg 450 than on my Gixxer. The Husaberg 450 (1 cyl. 4-stroke 50hp) is a Enduro-bike that have been converted to a Supermoto.

[Spectre]

Originally Posted by Nocturnal

In fairness, there are elements of truth in what he says. History, especially financial history, goes in cycles. The last time were in a situation similar to this, was indeed in the 30's, and we managed to get out of it thanks to the Second Great War. The US, notions of heroism aside, joined in for two very good reasons. Their economy was already on death row, and they needed European reparation money from Europe to help get it back on its feet again, and feared we wouldn't be able to pay. Furthermore, it would benefit from the industrial boost thanks to the war effort.

Erm, not quite. Our economy was back up to speed by the time Chamberlain came back proclaiming "Peace In Our Time" in 1938, and by 1940 we had enough new naval construction going that we fobbed off a bunch of our old ones to the Brits (along with some new ones) in exchange for much needed bases in Newfoundland and the Caribbean. Also at the time, the populace had no intention of entering yet another "pointless European war" or so it was viewed at the time. Heroism did not *even* begin to enter the popular mind until the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.

We essentially fought most of WW2 at sea with the naval construction from 1935 to 1941. We had industrial capacity to spare, enough to arm the Brits and keep the sealanes open through volumes of production.

Finally, it was the British and (especially) the French that needed the European war reparations to recover, the US did not. In fact, after the Great Depression hit, we pushed to suspend reparations, but the League Of Nations would not hear of it until it was too late. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_reparations for a capsule description. It should also be pointed out that the Wilson-authored Fourteen Points that helped push Germany to surrender did not mention reparations, other than for colonial claims and the restoration of destroyed territory. It was the British and French that pushed for, and got, crushing reparations.

[Nocturnal]

Originally Posted by Spectre

Heroism did not *even* begin to enter the popular mind until the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.

Roosevelt had been trying to get into the war for some time but opted out due to public opinion at the time. He used the event at Pearl Harbour very intelligently to sway that opinion, something he had not been successful in doing during the Princess cruise ship saga.

It was the British and French that pushed for, and got, crushing reparations.

And rightly so. We didn't enforce them nearly hard enough after the Versailles treaty, and look what happened.

Anyway, as much as I enjoy discussing the finer points of human conflict, this isn't the place to do it.

[MacGuffin]

You know, there is a thread about the current crisis in the political section of this forum

[Arctor]

Originally Posted by Spectre

That's the funny part. Only in Europe do you have a problem with people recognizing the Nissan brand. Over here and in Asia and Australia, Nissan has a great reputation - and their Z cars (which Europe didn't get at all until the 350Z) established their performance legend here. EVERYONE recognizes Nissan here.

Nissan doesn't have a good reputation here at all, especially after the disasters with the 350Z. People still consider Nissan to be below their counterparts, and cheaply made. Yes the Altima does well but that's about it really. The Sentra is nothing more than a rental car and the Maxima sales have fallen on it's face. People may know the brand but they certainly don't respect it.

Originally Posted by Spectre

They're going to sell a LOT of GT-Rs. Maybe not in Europe, but certainly in the US. Especially considering that media "sky is falling" idiocy aside, our economy is still much better off than Europe's.

Porsche is not going to be having fun for a while, methinks.

They're going to sell a lot of GT-R's initially then they will fall off rather quickly as the limited market dries up quickly and reliability issues come to the forefront. Hell with the way Nissan dealers are treating customers (extorting them for their cars, "losing" deposits, selling cars out from under people, refusing warranty work, voiding warranties, etc) I doubt many people will be willing to weather the storm.

Porsche on the other thand may struggle for a little bit but as gas prices continue to drop their cash cow will be fine again and since most people aren't actually hit that hard by this whole mess they will continue to buy. Especially as the Euro continues to drop against the dollar and Porsches become cheaper.

[marcos_eirik]

Originally Posted by Spectre

Stick a fork in the 911 Turbo, it's done.

Welcome to the most over used phrase thrown at the 911....

I have actually lost the count of how many times that has been said; "[insert name of new high performance cheaper car here] beats a Porsche on the track", "Porsche are going to struggle selling cars now...". And every single time, it has taken a couple of years and then, guess what? The hype settles and the former car is largely forgotten. Meanwhile the 911 is still going strong entering it's n-th generation, with customers literally lining up to buy them. Also, traditionally the USA has been Porsche's biggest market, so don't try to claim that Americans "suffer less" from brand snobbery. Heck, they even made a specific model because of US demand, the Cayenne.

This is purely a thought for consideration; Maybe not all people who buy performance cars are keyboard racers, or more like 99% of them aren't. A second slower lap time might not matter to them. Because, in the end, the 911 always seems to come out on top.

Also, on Porsche heritage; Guess who is the most successful brand competing in motor sports... The fact that Porsche once made tractors doesn't really matter, I mean Lamborghini still does...

[prizrak]

Originally Posted by marcos_eirik

Welcome to the most over used phrase thrown at the 911....

I have actually lost the count of how many times that has been said; "[insert name of new high performance cheaper car here] beats a Porsche on the track", "Porsche are going to struggle selling cars now...". And every single time, it has taken a couple of years and then, guess what? The hype settles and the former car is largely forgotten. Meanwhile the 911 is still going strong entering it's n-th generation, with customers literally lining up to buy them. Also, traditionally the USA has been Porsche's biggest market, so don't try to claim that Americans "suffer less" from brand snobbery. Heck, they even made a specific model because of US demand, the Cayenne.

This is purely a thought for consideration; Maybe not all people who buy performance cars are keyboard racers, or more like 99% of them aren't. A second slower lap time might not matter to them. Because, in the end, the 911 always seems to come out on top.

Also, on Porsche heritage; Guess who is the most successful brand competing in motor sports... The fact that Porsche once made tractors doesn't really matter, I mean Lamborghini still does...

Porsches aren't bought by people for performance, I have seen a total of 1 or 2 911s around and one of them was VERY old. I actually see alot more 924/944s around than any other Porsche. I have also yet to see an R35 on the road (although a couple of friends of mine did) I have seen R33 (GTS-T and GT-R ) and R34 (GT-R) and an R32 (GT-R).

The number of people who actually buy sports car for track duty is extremely limited and can be easily discounted. There is also a huge number of "bang for the buck" racers who will get a 240sx do some work on the engine, add a turbo and will have a 2700lbs vehicle with over 300whp, some put LSx engines in making them close to unbeatable.

What I'm trying to say is that ring times and lap times make no difference when it comes to sports car selection as people buy the car they want.

[MacGuffin]

That's exactly the point. Nobody has a reason to be worried at Porsche. That's why I do not understand this whole accusation thing - except they are right with their assumptions and there's manipulation at work here.

But I guess we'll never really know...

[Nocturnal]

Originally Posted by MacGuffin

You know, there is a thread about the current crisis in the political section of this forum

I'm guessing you didn't read the last part of my post.

People may know the brand but they certainly don't respect it.

They don't really have to respect the brand, do you really think people looking to buy a GTR will go ''Actually, it's made by Nissan, I'll go to Porsche and spend twice the money instead''? People will buy the car, based on the car, not the manufacturer.

Hell with the way Nissan dealers are treating customers (extorting them for their cars, "losing" deposits, selling cars out from under people, refusing warranty work, voiding warranties, etc) I doubt many people will be willing to weather the storm.

This 'voiding warranty' argument is getting old now. It's happened to one guy, who was clearly retarded. Besides, I'm rather hoping that the bottom will fall out of the sports car market soon, then I can pick up a GTR in 3 years time for the price of a 911 from the '80s.

Porsches aren't bought by people for performance

True to an extent, apart from the GT3/GT2s of this world. I haven't been to a track day in the last 2 years that hasn't had at least 1 GT3 there. The Porsche will do well, particularly in this country, because of sales reps using them as company cars. It doesn't matter how well the GT2/GT3/Turbo performs, on track or financially, because the sales of the Carreras will easily keep Porsche afloat, and thats before we mention the Cayman.

As for ''prestige'', please, bore me with another story.

[wooflepoof]

Porsche is better. Nissan is for nerds.

[Hercules286]

Originally Posted by wooflepoof

Porsche is better. Nissan is for nerds.

So it's nerds vs cocks... I'd rather be a nerd.

[un-dee]

I'd rather be the guy who doesn't give a shit and buys the car he likes more

[wooflepoof]

so it would be the gt-r then. cuz that makes you a nerd^

[klankymen]

Originally Posted by prizrak

Porsches aren't bought by people for performance, I have seen a total of 1 or 2 911s around and one of them was VERY old. I actually see alot more 924/944s around than any other Porsche.

You must live in the wrong big city then . I can't leave the house without seeing at least 3 white 997s, not to even mention the other colors, and older 911s.
AND, not only see them, but usually hear them first, it seems the drivers do utilize some of their performance.