Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating on the 'Ring

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by MadCat360

Okay, essay-man.

All tracks favor good drivers. If you suck at driving you'll be slow. I know how weather affects a track, I've spun at 15 MPH with new slicks and a cold track. If you know how to drive it's not a problem. Yeah, it will slow you down if the weather's bad. A lot. That's why I have a problem with the 'Ring. It's too inconsistent everywhere.

So YOU think a German racing series is cool. That's fine. But that doesn't make it major. Nurburgring isn't prestigious like St. Andrews. History, yes. Prestige, no. Prestige is reserved for things that still continue to be vitally pertinent. Take Monza. Hugely famous track, lots of history, like the 'Ring, but still pertinent, unlike the 'Ring. The greatest use for the Nurburgring these days is for testing cars, which I fully endorse. It's also a great drive. That's great. Never once did I say that I thought the Nurburgring was some kind of useless lump of Ye Olde Racetrack with weeds growing in it. So I don't know what you're all defensive about.

I´m not really defensive about anything. I love the ring, but what we´re arguing about is whether or not it is a good proving ground for road cars. I find ring fanboiism about as annoying as a good share of the other stuff going on in this thread.

Yes, the ring is inconsistent. Guess what, so are normal roads. Monza is a high speed track made for high performance racing cars. The reason why F1, DTM, or WTCC don´t go on the ring is because it´s madly dangerous. If that doesn´t make it cool I don´t know what will...

And yes, I like the VLN, probably the most underrated racing series ever. I don´t care if it´s "major" or not, it is just awesome. I think anyone who has ever been to a race will agree...

[Nocturnal]

The 'Ring has lots of 3/4th gear corners and only 1 really long straight, so if they changed the gearing a bit, made shorter 1-2-3-4 gears and longer 5-6th, they can optimize it for the ring at the sacrifice of topspeed (which is irrellevant really, you wont reach it at the ring)

I can see where you're coming from, and you are correct that there are very few places where you're carrying enough speed to change out of 4th. The problem with altering the final drive to make 3rd/4th shorter, is that you're essentially shooting yourself in the foot with regards to the amount of gear changes you would have to do. Theres not only the obvious time of changing gear itself, but its more difficult to prepare for the corners.

My friends DC2 is a very 'revvy' car as you'll probably know, but is geared short for acceleration. He was constantly fighting the gears, and for a lot of the time had 3 choices:

-Change up into 4th, then change immediately into 3rd for the next corner
-Hit the limiter
-Keep a constant throttle at the top end of 3rd

Originally Posted by MadCat360

1. The track is too long and too bumpy. The driver will never get a perfect lap out of the car.

As has already been said, the track (though it was actually originally designed as a racetrack before the First World War) has been developed into a test track, with the elimination of the Southloop, so isn't really about a perfect lap. As for the track being bumpy, have you ever been? Ive never once noticed it to be any bumpier than a UK track, particularly Croft where I almost lost all my teeth from setting the suspension too stiff. It has lots of transitioning cambers, but the surface itself is very smooth, and is part of the reason its so dangerous in the wet. The only bumpy surfaces are those of the two Karussells.

2. It's not that prestigious. Silverstone would be a better place. It's only famous because it's long. Not that many major races are held there, and none on the 12-mile track except clubsport.

How? Silverstone is a bloody awful track to drive, its boring as hell. It only favours fast cars, as there aren't really any technical corners. Bernie Ecclestone agrees, which is why Formula One is moving to Donington. And what is Donington famous for? Its blind crests and technical corners (remind you of anywhere else?) As for major races, theres the VLN as mentioned, there are a couple of 24 hour races held on the Northloop, and the GP circuit is used by Formula Renault, the Clio Cup, MotoGP...Dont forget, the only reason the Northloop isnt used for Formula One anymore is because of Nikki Laudas infamous crash in '76, and it was declared too dangerous and moved to Hockenheim. With the re-furb of the GP Circuit, Formula One will soon alternate between the Nurburgring and Hockenheim.

3. The track favors cars with a lot of power and soft suspension... which is why the Corvettes do so well there. A tightly-tuned and torquey supercar like an Enzo or a Zonda would get trounced by a Vette at the 'Ring, which is just wrong.

Completely wrong, as the Enzo (despite not being on the Wiki list) was one of the cars Basseng broke the production car record in. And, as has been correctly stated by someone else who has actually been, the TF days are dominated by more 'normal' cars. A chap I know from another forum is an RSR instructor, who has hit the mid-8 barrier in a 90bhp MX5 with nothing more than uprated springs. On a TF day, you wouldn't believe how fast that is.

4. Normal people can drive on it almost whenever they wish. That's a lot of crap rubber being laid down. And that has a HUGE impact on tire grip levels. A racetrack is somewhere a Toyota Camry CANNOT go, yet they trundle around the Nurburgring like it's a shopping run.

Actually, in all honesty the rubber laid down from other cars only makes a difference in the wet, which is another major factor in why the 'Ring is so deadly (that and the formulation of the tarmac so that it isnt permeable like regular roads). The biggest problems you face on the 'Ring are cars spilling their coolant, motorbikers, and in particular German bikers, who refuse to let English lads pass.

Plus, as has also been said, track days are held at all race-tracks, including your precious Silverstone (hence why Ive been round). Track days are attended by everything from Diablo GTRs to Fiat Pandas.

[NooDle]

Originally Posted by Nocturnal

I can see where you're coming from, and you are correct that there are very few places where you're carrying enough speed to change out of 4th. The problem with altering the final drive to make 3rd/4th shorter, is that you're essentially shooting yourself in the foot with regards to the amount of gear changes you would have to do. Theres not only the obvious time of changing gear itself, but its more difficult to prepare for the corners.

My friends DC2 is a very 'revvy' car as you'll probably know, but is geared short for acceleration. He was constantly fighting the gears, and for a lot of the time had 3 choices:

-Change up into 4th, then change immediately into 3rd for the next corner
-Hit the limiter
-Keep a constant throttle at the top end of 3rd

I see your point, but the GT-R has a sort of double clutch gear IIRC. Which means nearly instantaneous shifts, so you won't lose THAT much time shifting all over the place. I also remember hearing JC saying that this system is quicker, and better, than the Volkswagen DSG system (which everyone at TG already loves to death)

[Redliner]

Originally Posted by fbc

Frankly, I think the fact Porsche felt the need to do this is a massive pat on the back for the team at Nissan behind the GT-R.

Indeed.
Honestly people, do you REALLY think someone with the money and the intention to buy those cars chose to buy one or the other because of the "ring times"?
Porsche lovers still talk about soul, prestige, everyday supercar, etc and if it the GT-R turned out to be slower, Nissan lovers would talk about the price difference, practicality, etc...

[prizrak]

Originally Posted by NooDle

I see your point, but the GT-R has a sort of double clutch gear IIRC. Which means nearly instantaneous shifts, so you won't lose THAT much time shifting all over the place. I also remember hearing JC saying that this system is quicker, and better, than the Volkswagen DSG system (which everyone at TG already loves to death)

As nice as it may be you don't want to change gears in a corner.

[MacGuffin]

Originally Posted by MadCat360

1Nurburgring isn't prestigious like St. Andrews.

Where and what is St. Andrews?

Honestly... never heard of it.

[Spectre]

Neither have I, and I follow world motorsport.

Must not be *that* prestigious... or like Dave Dobbyn (the New Zealand singer) refers to himself, "World Famous... In New Zealand."

[MacGuffin]

I tried Wikipedia but all I found was a Golf course with that name...

Maybe he intended to compare the Nürburgring with a Golf course???

[Twerp128]

This is futile anyway because any one who's going to run a track day is going to buy a GT3 RS or a some sort of sporty race-ready GTR, when it comes to fruition. Or if they're smart they'll hold out for a Exige Cup 260.

[the Interceptor]

Nissan responds:"We didn't cheat with GT-R 'Ring time"

[BlaRo]

So, it's come down to this, then. Two of the world's foremost automobile manufacturers engaged in a shouty fanboyish pissing contest.

Shouldn't they be concentrating on, you know, making cars or something?

[Spectre]

Nissan's response seemed to make sense.

Of course, Nissan *is* working on making cars.
Porsche is working on coming out with a 911 Turbo Carrera RS Spyder Cabrio GT9 SUPER DOOPER AWESOME.
(In other words, another 911 Turbo with a 5hp boost, 10lb weight loss and a $300K price tag. )

[hansvonaxion]

Originally Posted by Spectre

Nissan's response seemed to make sense.

Yup. The guy at Porsche screwed up.

[Leonidae]

let's see how Porsche squirms out of this one..

[GraemeH]

If I were a marketing guy at Nissan i'd invite Porsche to bring a 911 turbo and their best driver to the 'ring for a time-attack show down in front of the world's press. If Nissan really know that the GT-R is faster (and i don't doubt it is), it would be an overwhelming PR victory for them either way; they'd crush their rival, or their rival would refuse the challenge.

[marcos_eirik]

Geez, you guys are acting like this was some sort of official statement by Porsche, well it's not. It was quite simply a Porsche engineer who was questioned about the Nissan GT-R's laptime, whereby he answered that he couldn't understand why it was supposedly so fast, as their example was unable of matching those numbers. Then suddenly lousy sensationalist journalism manages to make this conversation on an other cars launch look like an official statement, with Porsche officially accusing Nissan of cheating (in a game with no rules) and all hell brakes loose.

Originally Posted by GraemeH

If I were a marketing guy at Nissan i'd invite Porsche to bring a 911 turbo and their best driver to the 'ring for a time-attack show down in front of the world's press. If Nissan really know that the GT-R is faster (and i don't doubt it is), it would be an overwhelming PR victory for them either way; they'd crush their rival, or their rival would refuse the challenge.

... Or they could loose. I don't think Nissan dares doing that, as there evidently is a good chance that their car could turn out to be slower, which would rob the GT-R of a major selling point, and would probably also result in a mass seppuku among keyboard racers.

[MadCat360]

Originally Posted by MacGuffin

Where and what is St. Andrews?

Honestly... never heard of it.

The womb of Golf, which is still in use for everything that matters. I was using it to describe my idea of true prestige. Golf and motorsport are actually very similar.

Originally Posted by Nocturnal

Actually, in all honesty the rubber laid down from other cars only makes a difference in the wet, which is another major factor in why the 'Ring is so deadly (that and the formulation of the tarmac so that it isnt permeable like regular roads). The biggest problems you face on the 'Ring are cars spilling their coolant, motorbikers, and in particular German bikers, who refuse to let English lads pass.

Plus, as has also been said, track days are held at all race-tracks, including your precious Silverstone (hence why Ive been round). Track days are attended by everything from Diablo GTRs to Fiat Pandas.

Yeah, but normal racetracks refresh everyday, as I've said, and the 'Ring gets a ton more use than normal tracks. Rubber gets to a point where it just doesn't go away once you run it enough. And yes, rubber makes a huge difference. If you get bad rubber it might as well be wet. And what "precious" Silverstone? It was just an example.

My God you guys are so missing my point. Nurburgring laptimes are just so moot.

[pepitko]

well, to be honest they didn't say anything in the "Nissan responds" article. Didn't explain where the difference could have come from, only maintained that they didn't use other tires. If I was to be rude I would even suggest that "a repeated lie eventually becomes the truth."

Ah, somewhere in Germany, engineers in white coats are changing the tires on the GT-R to Dunlops and heading to the ring for another testing

It's all a PR stunt anyway, but very fun to watch the developments

[hansvonaxion]

Well, Porsche didn't say what tyres they used (they did say it was fitted with "new" tyres).
Or what the weather conditions were like.
Or explain how the GT-R bettered the Turbo in independent tests on other circuits.


Porsche already knew the best set-up for the Turbo and the best way to drive it etc, did they really think they could replicate the best possible time Nissan could achieve after thousands of laps with an ex-F1 driver at the wheel and the best possible set-up by throwing an un-named engineer in it and giving him a few laps?

[Wizegui]

I think Nissan's response to Porsche's accusations was a good one. Porsche sems to be getting into the habit of their noses up in other people's business lately... There really isn't a definite way of accurately measuring the lap times of the two cars, as they are both very different. One driver's driving style may be suited to different cars.

@hansvonaxion - If it wasn't for the tests done by various magazines and car review sites, I probably would not have believed that the GTR managed that sort of time in the Nurburgring, considering it's fairly hefty weight.