Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating on the 'Ring

[the Interceptor]

Originally Posted by Wizegui

If it wasn't for the tests done by various magazines and car review sites, I probably would not have believed that the GTR managed that sort of time in the Nurburgring, considering it's fairly hefty weight.

Nobody would expect the GT-R top be as quick if you ignore its party piece and just rely on the stats. I just wonder how something like that would happen to Porsche, they should know about cars.

[Nocturnal]

Originally Posted by MadCat360

Yeah, but normal racetracks refresh everyday, as I've said, and the 'Ring gets a ton more use than normal tracks. Rubber gets to a point where it just doesn't go away once you run it enough. And yes, rubber makes a huge difference. If you get bad rubber it might as well be wet. And what "precious" Silverstone? It was just an example.

My God you guys are so missing my point. Nurburgring laptimes are just so moot.

We agreed with you, but to slag the 'Ring off when you've clearly never been is pointless.

'Normal' racetracks dont refresh every day. I can guarantee that in any given week in season, you'll find a track day being held for 3 of those days, and a motorsport event of some description on the others. Its simply bad business sense to be paying the rates for a racing circuit, and not having any income in return. Plus, if you were only holding say, one event per week, you'd spend most of the money paying the marshalls wages etc.

[NooDle]

I can't believe this thread is still going! The only way they could settle this is to have both Porsche and Nissan have their best drivers go out on track SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Then we won't have excuses of different conditions etc.
They'd have to be far enough apart so they can't slipstream each other, and the track would have to be empty of course. Then it'd be only down to the driver, and the knowledge of the track.

Walter Rohrl (Porsche GT3) vs Toshio Suzuki (Nissan GT-R) would be awesome.

Then again, no one wants to be a loser so it'll never happen.

[monaroCountry]

Originally Posted by Wizegui

I think Nissan's response to Porsche's accusations was a good one. Porsche sems to be getting into the habit of their noses up in other people's business lately... There really isn't a definite way of accurately measuring the lap times of the two cars, as they are both very different. One driver's driving style may be suited to different cars.

@hansvonaxion - If it wasn't for the tests done by various magazines and car review sites, I probably would not have believed that the GTR managed that sort of time in the Nurburgring, considering it's fairly hefty weight.

Nissan's response was typical PR stunt without any substance. Porsche has previously called them out with the Nissan GTR R33 sub 8 minute time. My guess is that like the R33 days Nissan wont be able to replicate their time in front of world and Porsche scrutiny.

Nissan's early magazine times were far faster than the current privately owned showroom GTR's. As seen already some GTR's have a very very very healthy power output while some are just so so. Ringers anyone?

[monaroCountry]

Originally Posted by GraemeH

If I were a marketing guy at Nissan i'd invite Porsche to bring a 911 turbo and their best driver to the 'ring for a time-attack show down in front of the world's press. If Nissan really know that the GT-R is faster (and i don't doubt it is), it would be an overwhelming PR victory for them either way; they'd crush their rival, or their rival would refuse the challenge.

I doubt Porsche would back down when asked to challenge Nissan around the Nurburgring. Porsche might not have the best time but they do have the majority of the top place getters around the ring............its basically their back yard testing facility.

I cant see Nissan taking up the challenge.

[monaroCountry]

3. The track favors cars with a lot of power and soft suspension... which is why the Corvettes do so well there. A tightly-tuned and torquey supercar like an Enzo or a Zonda would get trounced by a Vette at the 'Ring, which is just wrong.

They basically get the same time around the ring. Vettes do tend to do well in this track with its high torque, top end with its limiter is where the vette falls over as compared to the Enzo and Zonda. The top dog around the ring is the monstrous Viper ACR.

Dodge Viper ACR - 7:22.1
Maserati Mc12 - 7:24.29
Pagani Zonda F - 7:24.65
Ferrari Enzo - 7:25.21
Corvette ZR1 - 7:26.4
Porsche CGT - 7:28.71
Koenigsegg CCX - 7:33.35


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCKGB...eature=related

The Enzo, MC12 Corsa, Zonda F, and Carrara GT are all owned by the same rich/lucky guy.

[Ford Prefect]

jesus, you couldn´t put that all in one post?

Originally Posted by NooDle

I can't believe this thread is still going! The only way they could settle this is to have both Porsche and Nissan have their best drivers go out on track SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Then we won't have excuses of different conditions etc.
They'd have to be far enough apart so they can't slipstream each other, and the track would have to be empty of course. Then it'd be only down to the driver, and the knowledge of the track.

Walter Rohrl (Porsche GT3) vs Toshio Suzuki (Nissan GT-R) would be awesome.

Then again, no one wants to be a loser so it'll never happen.

nono, you put them on the track at the same time, right next to each other... preferably on a weekend where I happen to be there to watch...

anyway, this discussion is getting stupid, and shows few signs of getting better... I shall try to come up with a way to build leaf springs into the conversation in a way that makes sense, just to get this going again. It will take some thinking though...

[hansvonaxion]

Originally Posted by monaroCountry

Nissan's response was typical PR stunt without any substance. Porsche has previously called them out with the Nissan GTR R33 sub 8 minute time. My guess is that like the R33 days Nissan wont be able to replicate their time in front of world and Porsche scrutiny.

Nissan's early magazine times were far faster than the current privately owned showroom GTR's. As seen already some GTR's have a very very very healthy power output while some are just so so. Ringers anyone?

PR stunt? It was a direct response to comments made by a Porsche engineer. No stunt.

Substance? There is a video of the lap in question. There are lap times done by independent testers that suggest the 'ring time is legit. Someone at Porsche said someone did some laps, sometime, with some new tyres and they couldn't get the same time. Wow. So much substance.

As for ringers, no.

Check.

The power is underrated, it's consistently 425-435hp at the wheels, the press cars C&D checked were the same or less. Others have checked customer cars and they're all 425-435.

[monaroCountry]

Pagani Zonda F - 3.6
561lbft/603 PS/1230 kg
Nurburgring time - 7:24.65

Porsche CGT - 3.9
435lbft/612 PS/1475 kg
Nurburgring time - 7:28.71

Maserati Mc12 - 3.0
480lbft/632 PS/1335 kg
Nurburgring time - 7:24.29

Ferrari Enzo - 3.6
484lbft/660 PS/1365 kg
Nurburgring time - 7:25.21

Dodge Viper ACR -
560lbft/600 PS/1533 kg
Nurburgring time - 7:22.1

Corvette ZR1 - 3.4
605lbft/649 PS/1508 kg
Nurburgring time - 7:26.4

Nissan GTR - 3.5
434lbft/473 PS/1719 kg
Nurburgring time - 7.29

[monaroCountry]

Originally Posted by hansvonaxion

PR stunt? It was a direct response to comments made by a Porsche engineer. No stunt.

Substance? There is a video of the lap in question. There are lap times done by independent testers that suggest the 'ring time is legit. Someone at Porsche said someone did some laps, sometime, with some new tyres and they couldn't get the same time. Wow. So much substance.

The lap that is currently in dispute and does look very shady. So Nissan has to conduct an independently verified, tested (hopefully by Porsche) Nurburgring lap. I doubt Nissan would do this though.

Also several highly respected drivers like Steve Sutcliffe, Horst Von Saurma, and Alain Prost back up Porsches comments..............even Nissan's engineers said something about the GTR being a high 7:40's mid 7:50's region during development. Nissan just got greedy and went with the 7:29 time...........which is extremely unbelievable.

As for ringers, no.

Check.

The power is underrated, it's consistently 425-435hp at the wheels, the press cars C&D checked were the same or less. Others have checked customer cars and they're all 425-435.

Power figures have been all over the place and several publications have commented on this. Even the trap speeds have been extreemly varied, from 111mph to 124mph. Trap speeds is a great indicator of power.

[pepitko]

Originally Posted by monaroCountry

Pagani Zonda F - 3.6
561lbft/603 PS/1230 kg
Nurburgring time - 7:24.65

Porsche CGT - 3.9
435lbft/612 PS/1475 kg
Nurburgring time - 7:28.71

Maserati Mc12 - 3.0
480lbft/632 PS/1335 kg
Nurburgring time - 7:24.29

Ferrari Enzo - 3.6
484lbft/660 PS/1365 kg
Nurburgring time - 7:25.21

Dodge Viper ACR -
560lbft/600 PS/1533 kg
Nurburgring time - 7:22.1

Corvette ZR1 - 3.4
605lbft/649 PS/1508 kg
Nurburgring time - 7:26.4

Nissan GTR - 3.5
434lbft/473 PS/1719 kg
Nurburgring time - 7.29

you forgot to add:
Koenigsegg CCX - 7:33.35
678 lbft/806 PS/1180kg

how could this be slower than the GT-R?

[vikiradTG2007]

Originally Posted by pepitko

you forgot to add:
Koenigsegg CCX - 7:33.35
678 lbft/806 PS/1180kg

how could this be slower than the GT-R?

Less controllable. Since even the Stig crashed it...

[NooDle]

Originally Posted by monaroCountry

Pagani Zonda F - 3.6
561lbft/603 PS/1230 kg
Nurburgring time - 7:24.65

Porsche CGT - 3.9
435lbft/612 PS/1475 kg
Nurburgring time - 7:28.71

Maserati Mc12 - 3.0
480lbft/632 PS/1335 kg
Nurburgring time - 7:24.29

Ferrari Enzo - 3.6
484lbft/660 PS/1365 kg
Nurburgring time - 7:25.21

Dodge Viper ACR -
560lbft/600 PS/1533 kg
Nurburgring time - 7:22.1

Corvette ZR1 - 3.4
605lbft/649 PS/1508 kg
Nurburgring time - 7:26.4

Nissan GTR - 3.5
434lbft/473 PS/1719 kg
Nurburgring time - 7.29

what does the Nurburgring do to cars specifically? looking at power/weight and torque something doesn't add up. The Viper for instance, has less torque, less power, weighs more, yet ends up to be quicker than the ZR1.

The GTR has a lot less torque, a lot less power, 200 kgs more weight, and is only 7 seconds slower?

So logically, the heavier the car and the less torque it has, the faster it laps the ring? I'd be able to lap he ring with my car in 5 minutes flat then

[the Interceptor]

Dearest monaroCountry, you, just as Porsche, don't seem to know why the GT-R is as fast on the track, and just as them, you don't seem to want to know, rather than just sit there in disbelief.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally Posted by the Interceptor

Dearest monaroCountry, you, just as Porsche, don't seem to know why the GT-R is as fast on the track, and just as them, you don't seem to want to know, rather than just sit there in disbelief.

Aside from posting the original article so I could have a chuckle at the fanboys, I was going to stay out of this. However, this post struck me as rather brainless.

You're accusing Porsche of "not wanting to know why the GT-R is fast, and just sitting in disbelief," yet they obviously did want to know, and they went as far as to purchase a GT-R and flog it around the ring to verify its speed. I would say that's actually the opposite of "not wanting to know" and "sitting in disbelief."

[Alok]

Originally Posted by Nocturnal

A chap I know from another forum is an RSR instructor, who has hit the mid-8 barrier in a 90bhp MX5 with nothing more than uprated springs. On a TF day, you wouldn't believe how fast that is.

Dale Lomas, BTG?

[klankymen]

Originally Posted by NooDle

I can't believe this thread is still going! The only way they could settle this is to have both Porsche and Nissan have their best drivers go out on track SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Then we won't have excuses of different conditions etc.
They'd have to be far enough apart so they can't slipstream each other, and the track would have to be empty of course. Then it'd be only down to the driver, and the knowledge of the track.

Walter Rohrl (Porsche GT3) vs Toshio Suzuki (Nissan GT-R) would be awesome.

Then again, no one wants to be a loser so it'll never happen.

Yes. And also, Nissan is to go to a dealer an buy the GT3, and Porsche is to go to a dealer an buy the GTR, and cars aren't exchanged until at the track.

[D-Fence]

Better someone neutral buy both cars, otherwise they tinker around with the counterparts cars

[the Interceptor]

Originally Posted by BerserkerCatSplat

Aside from posting the original article so I could have a chuckle at the fanboys, I was going to stay out of this. However, this post struck me as rather brainless.

You're accusing Porsche of "not wanting to know why the GT-R is fast, and just sitting in disbelief," yet they obviously did want to know, and they went as far as to purchase a GT-R and flog it around the ring to verify its speed. I would say that's actually the opposite of "not wanting to know" and "sitting in disbelief."

Yeah, you would think. However, this statement ...

Achleitner says the back-to-back comparison was run because Porsche was concerned by Nissan's claims for the GT-R, which is heavier than the 911 with similar power.

(...)

"It's a very consistent car. But this car is about 20 kilos heavier than the Turbo . . ."

In the end, Porsche believes its testing has achieved the right lap times for the Skyline GT-R and benchmarked it against its own 911 heroes in the right context.

"For us it has been clearly the result. This technical puzzle now fits together. With the other numbers we had problems to understand it," he says.

... led me to believe they don't really know why the GT-R is as fast. They simply looked at the figures, said that it "can't be!", then ran the car under unknown conditions (was it set up properly?) and drew their conclusions. From a bunch of highly qualified German engineers, I'd expect more insight into how the GT-R works and what it is that makes it fast, rather than relying on an error with the tires for Nissans lap.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally Posted by the Interceptor

Yeah, you would think. However, this statement ...... led me to believe they don't really know why the GT-R is as fast. They simply looked at the figures, said that it "can't be!", then ran the car under unknown conditions (was it set up properly?) and drew their conclusions. From a bunch of highly qualified German engineers, I'd expect more insight into how the GT-R works and what it is that makes it fast, rather than relying on an error with the tires for Nissans lap.

What? You expect more from German engineers than analyzing a car's drive system, power and weight, finding that it should be slower than Nissan claims, and then doing a real-life test to back up their calculations?

Hypothesis: A showroom-stock GT-R is slower than Nissan's claim.

Procedure: Purchase GT-R from showroom, take to Ring, see how fast it goes around.

Results: GT-R significantly slower than claimed.

Conclusion: Assuming the engine in the Nissan-run GT-R was stock, tires are the only feasible reason for the large time discrepancy.


Seriously, I think the whole Nurburgring time this is a giant circle-jerk, but I can't really fault Porsche's methods.