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Thread: Senator Mitch McConnell (R-Corvette factory): None shall pass!

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    Senator Mitch McConnell (R-Corvette factory): None shall pass!

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/12/bu...12auto.html?hp

    Quote Originally Posted by bits from the article
    The prospects of a $14 billion government rescue of the American auto industry seemed to vaporize on Thursday morning as the Senate Republican leader, Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, spoke out forcefully against the bill, effectively dooming its chances despite the urgings of the White House.

    Although Mr. McConnell voiced support of an alternative plan that was developed by Senator Bob Corker, Republican of Tennessee, it seemed unlikely that there was any possibility of compromise at this late point in the year.

    Because of procedural hurdles, (Senate Majority Leader Harry) Reid could not force a vote on the auto measures on Thursday. If the Republicans refuse to allow immediate votes, he has laid the groundwork for a vote Friday morning that would end the discussion if Republicans refused to support the bill.
    Well done (not very) fat man from Kentucky!

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    Helsinki Smash Rod Dogbert's Avatar
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    Oh my god, I'm cheering for Republicans. I need a shower.

    Quote Originally Posted by Some Smartypants Republican
    Among other things, the alternate plan offered by Mr. Corker calls for giving the holders of bonds issued by the auto companies 30 cents on the dollar to ease the companies’ debt burden; immediately bringing workers’ wages in line with foreign companies like Nissan and Volkswagen; and forcing the United Auto Workers to eliminate payments to workers after their jobs have been eliminated.
    This is a good plan! How could you possibly oppose this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Obama
    “I raised concerns about the health of our auto industry a year and a half ago, when I spoke to industry leaders in Detroit. I urged them to act quickly to adopt new technologies and a new business approach that would help them stay competitive in these changing times. And while they’ve failed to move quickly enough toward these goals, at this moment of great challenge for our economy, we cannot simply stand by and watch this industry collapse. Doing so would lead to a devastating ripple effect throughout our economy.”
    Okay, so you've acknowledged they've failed. Great. Now find a way to punish them, while not putting the burden on us.

    The more and more I hear about this, the more and more I'm turning into a Ford supporter.
    Last edited by Dogbert; December 11th, 2008 at 6:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogbert View Post
    Now find a way to punish them, while not putting the burden on us.
    There's no way to detach us from this problem. Either we bail out GM and Chrysler somehow (costs us) or we let them declare bankruptcy and see hundreds of thousands of people lose their jobs (costs us a lot).

    I don't know how well Corker's plan would work for GM. Have the gov't buy up all of GM's bonds while slashing wages and benefits for workers? I don't think it's enough. They should've declared bankruptcy, and at least the current bailout plan has an all-powerful oversight board to force restructuring.

    Pull that and the UAW, assholes that they are, will probably strike. Gettelfinger already agreed to eliminate the job bank, among other things, so I'm sure there are plenty of line workers pissed off.

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    Helsinki Smash Rod Dogbert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigger View Post
    There's no way to detach us from this problem. Either we bail out GM and Chrysler somehow (costs us) or we let them declare bankruptcy and see hundreds of thousands of people lose their jobs (costs us a lot).

    I don't know how well Corker's plan would work for GM. Have the gov't buy up all of GM's bonds while slashing wages and benefits for workers? I don't think it's enough. They should've declared bankruptcy, and at least the current bailout plan has an all-powerful oversight board to force restructuring.

    Pull that and the UAW, assholes that they are, will probably strike. Gettelfinger already agreed to eliminate the job bank, among other things, so I'm sure there are plenty of line workers pissed off.
    Okay, we just (almost) bailed out GM. The bailout wasn't even completely set in stone, and they were already talking about the next one. What exactly does that tell you? Hundreds of thousands of people are going to lose their jobs, regardless of how much money we pump into these companies. An unintentional side effect of bailing them out once would be that everyone has time to get their resumes together and find new contracts. Other than that, it's just a question of how much of our money they take with them to hell. And if you work for GM or Chrysler, and haven't found a new job by now, then you really only have yourself to blame at this point.

    Do you realize how bad of an idea an "all-powerful oversight board" is? Who could you possibly put on that board that wouldn't be influenced at all by lobbyists or the companies themselves? "Car Czar" is double super secret code for "scapegoat" at this point.

    If the UAW strikes, not only is it economic suicide because they'll all lose their jobs, but it's societal suicide because they'll lose whatever public sympathy they had. Those line workers that are pissed off that the Jobs Bank program is gone can go fuck themselves, too.
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    The Deported Spectre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigger View Post
    There's no way to detach us from this problem. Either we bail out GM and Chrysler somehow (costs us) or we let them declare bankruptcy and see hundreds of thousands of people lose their jobs (costs us a lot).
    Misconception - bankruptcy doesn't mean that everyone loses their jobs. Chapter 11, reorganization bankruptcy, allows people to keep working and is actually beneficial. Chapter 7 is the "game over" bankruptcy - everyone is fired, everything gets sold off.

    People fly on bankrupt airlines all the time, they buy products from bankrupt companies and they themselves do the personal equivalent of the corporate Chapter 11, called Chapter 13, all the time.

    The reason why the Democratic Congress is so panicked is because under Chapter 11, the UAW can be told to take a hike along with their ridiculous demands. And they owe the UAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogbert View Post
    If the UAW strikes, not only is it economic suicide because they'll all lose their jobs, but it's societal suicide because they'll lose whatever public sympathy they had. Those line workers that are pissed off that the Jobs Bank program is gone can go fuck themselves, too.
    We can hope they're that stupid - because then the American populace will blame them for killing GM.
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    I just read an article about how impossible it would be for GM to file chapter 11. Can't find it at the moment, if I can dig it up, I will post it later.

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    The Deported Spectre's Avatar
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    It is not yet impossible, just difficult. But please, post the article, I'd be interested to see who it was that wrote it (there have been some UAW shills running around lately in the press claiming all sorts of wild stuff.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogbert View Post
    Do you realize how bad of an idea an "all-powerful oversight board" is? Who could you possibly put on that board that wouldn't be influenced at all by lobbyists or the companies themselves? "Car Czar" is double super secret code for "scapegoat" at this point.
    In the talks with the House, they agreed that the oversight board would have all the restructuring powers of a bankruptcy judge. Not a bad idea at all. But I'd rather see it presided over by an actual judge, in actual Chapter 11, not by a bunch of congressman who don't know their elbows from their assholes when it comes to cars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogbert View Post
    If the UAW strikes, not only is it economic suicide because they'll all lose their jobs, but it's societal suicide because they'll lose whatever public sympathy they had. Those line workers that are pissed off that the Jobs Bank program is gone can go fuck themselves, too.
    Sounds like they've taken a solid step towards suicide. Republican senators seemed to have been naming Gettelfinger's refusal of further concessions (until 2011, at least ) as a principal cause for shooting this legislation down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectre View Post
    Misconception - bankruptcy doesn't mean that everyone loses their jobs. Chapter 11, reorganization bankruptcy, allows people to keep working and is actually beneficial. Chapter 7 is the "game over" bankruptcy - everyone is fired, everything gets sold off.
    That's right, but I don't think an automaker who's declared bankruptcy is going to sell too many cars. Airlines are something else entirely. People have to fly, but with the economy in it's current state, people are hanging onto their cars. Do you really think that GM could declare bankruptcy without being liquidated? You know more about this than I do, but I don't think they'd make it.

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    The Deported Spectre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigger View Post
    That's right, but I don't think an automaker who's declared bankruptcy is going to sell too many cars. Airlines are something else entirely. People have to fly, but with the economy in it's current state, people are hanging onto their cars. Do you really think that GM could declare bankruptcy without being liquidated? You know more about this than I do, but I don't think they'd make it.
    I think they might, but both marketing and production would have to be carefully managed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectre View Post
    It is not yet impossible, just difficult. But please, post the article, I'd be interested to see who it was that wrote it (there have been some UAW shills running around lately in the press claiming all sorts of wild stuff.)
    The article is only available for a fee and I am not paying for it. Basicly the article explained that it would be impossible to get all of the creditors and others that were owed money to agree on a way for all of them not to get completely shafted. There are dozens of companies that are owed money in just the county I live in.

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    The Deported Spectre's Avatar
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    Ah. That would be a bit of a misconception. You don't have to get *all* the creditors and note holders to agree - only a majority of those who are owed the most, along with the bankruptcy judge or trustee. That's just a general rule - in law, it's both more and less complex than that.

    Unfortunately, this quite often means that those whom the bankrupt company owes relatively little to get the shaft.

    On the other hand, some companies that exit Chapter 11 successfully *do* honor all their prior debts, so those debtors may be paid... eventually.

    Does this paid site list the author and title of the article? I'd be curious to see if it's a name I recognize - I've been involved on the periphery of Chapter 11 filings before and I have family that specializes in it.
    Last edited by Spectre; December 13th, 2008 at 12:25 PM.
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    Personally I think they waited to long and that Chapter 7 is becoming more inevitable each passing day...
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    I read the article in the "Flint Journal" and it was written by a woman who writes for the "Grand Rapids Press", But I do not recall her name and the web site does not list it. I would normally just scan the article but it was recycle week and it went out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Personally I think they waited to long and that Chapter 7 is becoming more inevitable each passing day...
    I'm about 95% sure that's what's going to happen to Chrysler.

    GM.... it could go either way right now - but every day they delay is another point towards Chapter 7, that's for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by GRtak View Post
    I read the article in the "Flint Journal" and it was written by a woman who writes for the "Grand Rapids Press", But I do not recall her name and the web site does not list it. I would normally just scan the article but it was recycle week and it went out.
    I'm not questioning that the article exists - I have seen several like it, and they're all fearmongering Chicken Little attempts to drum up support to bail out the UAW (since under Chapter 11, the UAW is going to get a big metal shaft in the arse.) I just wanted to know which particular idiot wrote this particular article.

    Here's what the courts themselves say about that:

    http://www.uscourts.gov/bankruptcyco...chapter11.html

    {First, the bankrupt corporation files a plan of action with the court, which is then vetted by the judge and passed on to the creditors for acceptance. - Spectre}

    Section 1123(a) of the Bankruptcy Code lists the mandatory provisions of a chapter 11 plan, and section 1123(b) lists the discretionary provisions. Section 1123(a)(1) provides that a chapter 11 plan must designate classes of claims and interests for treatment under the reorganization. Generally, a plan will classify claim holders as secured creditors, unsecured creditors entitled to priority, general unsecured creditors, and equity security holders.

    Under section 1126(c) of the Bankruptcy Code, an entire class of claims is deemed to accept a plan if the plan is accepted by creditors that hold at least two-thirds in amount and more than one-half in number of the allowed claims in the class. Under section 1129(a)(10), if there are impaired classes of claims, the court cannot confirm a plan unless it has been accepted by at least one class of non-insiders who hold impaired claims (i.e., claims that are not going to be paid completely or in which some legal, equitable, or contractual right is altered). Moreover, under section 1126(f), holders of unimpaired claims are deemed to have accepted the plan.
    Last edited by Spectre; December 13th, 2008 at 12:30 PM.
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    Suckin' dic* bought this title vegasrebel29's Avatar
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    It's times like these I wish I were Warren Buffett.

    I'd start by buying up 51% of the company's shares, currently valued at $1.25b. That's day one.
    On the second day, I'd install my own board and immediately file for bankruptcy. I'd subsequently announce the intention to repay all existing debt in full as quickly as possible.
    On the third, I'd announce a warranty guarantee partnership, and put up Saab for sale. I'd also try to sell Saturn to an aspiring foreign manufacturer.
    On the fourth, I'd announce I was opening factories in Wyoming, New Hampshire, Texas, Florida, Idaho and Nevada. I'd also announce the development of a dedicated law enforcement car.
    On the fifth, I'd announce new product lineups which would include an ultra low cost marque, the introduction of the rebadged Vauxhall Corsa into the US, and begin importation of them as soon as possible through an "on demand" arrangement until factories could churn them out. Marques utilized, in order of price, are the low cost marque, Chevrolet/Holden/Vauxhall/Opel, Pontiac, Buick, and Cadillac. No GMC, no Saab, no Saturn. Hummer would be up for sale, but pending sale would be reformed as a low-volume niche manufacturer.
    On the sixth, I'd offer a $100k severance package to any former employee, double that to any employee that sought higher education and returned to their community, or found a job in that community. I'd also launch an advertising campaign that said something about heartbeats, youth, rebirth... you know the kind.
    And on the seventh, I'd rest.

    Nearly as soon as I posted that, I got an email from GM.

    " Thank you for being a GM customer. There's been a lot of discussion about the auto industry over the past few weeks, and I want to make sure you know the facts about GM. This is important because with all the media coverage of late about our company and industry, it is evident that there is much misinformation and many very dated perceptions being communicated. The truth and the facts are always helpful. First, we're building our best cars and trucks ever, and we're committed to being the best car company on the planet."
    Last edited by vegasrebel29; December 13th, 2008 at 2:27 PM.
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    First, we're building our best cars and trucks ever, and we're committed to being the best car company on the planet.
    on which fucking planet exactly?
    Last edited by freefall; December 13th, 2008 at 8:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vegasrebel29 View Post
    On the fourth, I'd announce I was opening factories in Wyoming, New Hampshire, Texas, Florida, Idaho and Nevada.
    What made you pick these places?
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    IIRC, none of them have income tax.

    However, New Hampshire is a forced-unionism state, so you'd want to leave that one out.

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    Suckin' dic* bought this title vegasrebel29's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedguy View Post
    What made you pick these places?
    Proximity to major ports and the rest of the nation.
    Also, I chose New Hampshire because of the Free State Project.
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