The Music Thread

[zenon]

Originally Posted by SPG900

I'm certainly a Beatles fan, but I'd like to nuance that "most musically skilled and most original". Let's not forget that, first of all, they wouldn't have done what they did without George Martin. Lennon and McCartney were pretty good at taking up things around them, and they took up lots from him. And what would their music be without all his great arrangements etc? I'm also pretty convinced that Martin could take credit for some of the more daring chord progressions.

Well, really, whenever I talk about the Beatles as a band, I almost always include George Martin. His recording techniques and influence had such a major impact on the band that if someone says the Beatles they were the "most skilled and most original" band of their time, I would include George Martin.

Originally Posted by SPG900

Most musically skilled? They couldn't even read notes.

Okay, you can't make a statement as absurd as that without backing yourself up. I'm a classicaly trained pianist, as well as a guitar player. I can read sheet music, I can read chords and I can read tabs. You can not say that one is better than the other. Each of them is a system for explaining an abstract language - they have strenghts and weaknesses because of varying complexities in how you write things, but that is reflected in the music that each is used for. If you are playing a Beatles song, it is only natural to express it in chords and tabs. If you are playing a classical song, it is natural to express it in standard sheet music. Not being able to read sheet music does not reflect musical talent at all - they merely use a different language.

Originally Posted by SPG900

Most original then? Hm, they may have started something with albums like Rubber Soul, but there were other bands out there doing similar things. Most notably of course, The Beach Boys. Sure, Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band was a great pop record, but in my opinion it's easily beaten by Pet Sounds, which predates Sgt. Pepper's and even Revolver. Listen to tracks like She's Leaving Home, and focus a bit on McCartney's bass playing post-'66, and you'll hear what sort of an influence Brian Wilson has been. It should also be mentioned that Sgt. Pepper's was a work by Lennon, McCartney and Martin, whereas Wilson was on his own.

You do realize that Brian Wilson suffered a major nervous breakdown after hearing Sgt. Pepper's, right? After he heard the album for the first time, he realized that the Beatles had completely trumped him - he literally could not get out of bed because of debilitating depression and completely stopped making music for weeks.

Originally Posted by SPG900

hey may have been the best and most successful pop band, but they didn't do it without a little help, and they didn't make the best pop album (not even of their time), or so I think. And furthermore, it's merely pop. I'm sorry but you can only analyse Beatles songs to a certain extent. When it comes to music theory, classical music offers a million times more. Haven't watched this particular documentary yet, but so many times they have been called music geniuses or whatnot. I have to say it annoys me a little. Very talented though, without a doubt.

You should really watch this documentary first before you argue against it. A huge portion of the show explains the importance of the Beatles music in lieu of contemporary classical music. Please watch the show before you continue to discuss this.

[SPG900]

I can't download it at the moment due to bandwidth issues, but I'll watch it next week. I was talking about things I've read and heard so far though, not this particular show. If you're going to talk about the importance of The Beatles vs. contemporary classical music (I was talking about all classical btw), then I too would say The Beatles are important, for their clear, ear-catching, simple but well-constructed melodies: something which is overlooked many times by a lot of classical composers, especially of course some contemporary ones. In fact I've heard someone say this before, I think it was Gergiev, and he continued to compare The Beatles with Rachmaninoff's great melodies because of this. My point was though, that you're going to get more out off analysing classical compositions, and I still stand by that. Sorry for replying to that already, but I feel I've listened/read enough already to have an opinion about this, without having watched this specific show. Not to say I'm not curious now...

As for guitar tabs, what bothers me mostly about them is their poor way of translating rhythm. Unless of course you know the song already, I would never go with tabs. But I'll admit I only know the basics of guitar playing, so maybe I'm wrong here? Either way, I was mostly talking about The Beatles' lack of musical training (--> smth for which I feel being able to read notes is almost a must), and how George Martin made up for that. I obviously agree with you in saying Martin was part of The Beatles. Sadly though, most people will not include him when speaking of the band, and of course he wasn't officially.

As for Brian Wilson(*), I would still say Pet Sounds is better. It isn't when it comes to production quality, but I think it is overall, mostly in terms of song writing. It would have been a much closer call if Harrison's Within You Without You had been omitted. It's one of his poorer Beatles contributions, and sadly it does take up 1/8th of the record. I always listen to Pet Sounds from start to finish, but it's been years since I last did that with Sgt Pepper's.

Anyway, you could still say that The Beatles are the biggest band of the 60s, because they released great records throughout most of the decade, and indeed the first couple of years, '63-'65, there was hardly any competition, and other bands were struggling to catch up. That changed though, and in the second half of the '60s you find more and more great records from other bands. I just had the impression from your post that you were saying The Beatles were the creative force of that period, which I think is only a half truth.


(*)regarding his breakdown: I always thought it started much before the release of Sgt. Pepper's, and that he got psychologically confused while making Smile. He was starting to have doubts, and the fact that he constantly had to defend his direction to the rest of the band didn't help. On top of that, he knew he wasn't going to be given enough time to finish the project properly. The Beatles did play a part in it, but prior to SPLHCB, with the release of Penny Lane/Strawberry Fields Forever. By the time the record came out (sadly without those two tracks on it, and with Harrison's poor track), the damage was already done for Wilson.

[zenon]

Originally Posted by SPG900

If you're going to talk about the importance of The Beatles vs. contemporary classical music (I was talking about all classical btw), then I too would say The Beatles are important, for their clear, ear-catching, simple but well-constructed melodies: something which is overlooked many times by a lot of classical composers, especially of course some contemporary ones. In fact I've heard someone say this before, I think it was Gergiev, and he continued to compare The Beatles with Rachmaninoff's great melodies because of this. My point was though, that you're going to get more out off analysing classical compositions, and I still stand by that. Sorry for replying to that already, but I feel I've listened/read enough already to have an opinion about this, without having watched this specific show. Not to say I'm not curious now...

I was talking about the Beatles importance in relationship to contemporary classical more than 'classical' classical (). I probably should have defined that, but that is what the show specifically talks about. Whenever you get a chance to watch it you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

Originally Posted by SPG900

As for guitar tabs, what bothers me mostly about them is their poor way of translating rhythm. Unless of course you know the song already, I would never go with tabs. But I'll admit I only know the basics of guitar playing, so maybe I'm wrong here?

The one major weakness of tabs is its inability to express rhythm in the same way sheet music does. I haven't had nearly as much experience with tabs as I have had with sheet music, but I'd definetly say it is a major weakness. I've been playing piano and reading sheet music for over 15 years now, while I've only played guitar and read tabs for a year. I've played from chords for quite a while as well - probably around 10 years. Still, I have never been able to play guitar from sheet music, no matter how hard I try. I think my brain is just hardwired for playing piano from sheet music, but I think tabs and chords are just a more natural way of expressing things for guitar.

Originally Posted by SPG900

Either way, I was mostly talking about The Beatles' lack of musical training (--> smth for which I feel being able to read notes is almost a must), and how George Martin made up for that.

I still don't think formal musical training has much to do with how good of a musician you are. I'd like to think it was important, as I spent over 10 years of my life studying Royal Conservatory piano, but from my experience playing with other musicains, I could not say it is vital. I have an ear and talent for specific things, while people I know who are self-taught have an ear and talent for other specific things. Neither of us are more talented than the other, we merely have different strenghts and weaknesses. I know musicians who play entirely from ear who are able to do things I can not even fathom, while the inverse is probably also true.

Originally Posted by SPG900

As for Brian Wilson(*), I would still say Pet Sounds is better. It isn't when it comes to production quality, but I think it is overall, mostly in terms of song writing. It would have been a much closer call if Harrison's Within You Without You had been omitted. It's one of his poorer Beatles contributions, and sadly it does take up 1/8th of the record. I always listen to Pet Sounds from start to finish, but it's been years since I last did that with Sgt Pepper's.

I can definetly see your point here. I would have a hard time chosing between Pet Sounds and Sgt. Pepper's myself, but I think I would always end up chosing Sgt. Pepper's. However, in my opinion, the greatest Beatles album is the White Album.

Originally Posted by SPG900

I just had the impression from your post that you were saying The Beatles were the creative force of that period, which I think is only a half truth.

I didn't intend to say they were the creative force of that period - I intended to say that they were the greatest creative force. That is obviously a bit subjective, but while bands like the Beach Boys were doing incredibly creative things in terms of song writing and recording, I sitll think the Beatles were more creative.

Originally Posted by SPG900

(*)regarding his breakdown: I always thought it started much before the release of Sgt. Pepper's, and that he got psychologically confused while making Smile. He was starting to have doubts, and the fact that he constantly had to defend his direction to the rest of the band didn't help. On top of that, he knew he wasn't going to be given enough time to finish the project properly. The Beatles did play a part in it, but prior to SPLHCB, with the release of Penny Lane/Strawberry Fields Forever. By the time the record came out (sadly without those two tracks on it, and with Harrison's poor track), the damage was already done for Wilson.

I could very well be wrong about exactly what caused his mental breakdown, but around the time that Smile was released, I saw a series of documentaries and interviews with Wilson, and remember hearing the explination that hearing Sgt. Pepper's caused his ultimate breakdown. His breakdown did happen in 1967, whicih was the same year Sgt. Pepper's was released. He was obviously going downhill for quite a while, but as far as I know, Sgt. Pepper's was the breaking point for him. I could very well be wrong though, as Brian Wilson and most of the people around him were taking a lot of drugs at the time - in a situation like that, no one probably knows or remembers exactly what went on.

[v0od0o]

wow
can anyone believe these guys' knowledge about 60s music

[Overheat]

making good use of the quote button there i see

[Jostyrostelli]

I think this could be quite interesting to read ( BIG 50s and 60s fan )






IF I had the time to read it, guess I'll have to print some things and read it in the train on my way to school

[SPG900]

Hm, the tracker for that documentary seems to be down now.

[Overheat]

http://www.liebography.com/ipod.htm

[Coddington]

Originally Posted by bahnstormer

instead of
..............
fluke - very electronicy cool beats
zero 7 - very chill
st germain - self described easy listening house music very cool stuff
air - u should know who they are
molotov - awesome crazy spanish guys fast beat, good guitar

Those 3 bands are among my favorites.
I was really desappointed by the last AIR but a few tracks like Radian are awesome by the felling they get ...
Zero 7 is really sweet in car and better for my driving licence
The album Tourist from St Germain is ideal when you have friends at the house

I don't know Molotov so i will download it but which album is the better to begin?

---------------------------

Trip hop :
Massive attack : Mezzanine
The first track angel always reminds me the movie Snatch

Chill out :
Hotel Costes : the 6 first are very good but forgot the 7th
The best of is also very interesting

OST :
I have so much OST, hard mission to choice 1....
Snatch for the rhythmic

Pop music :
OST from the TV show Alias are very various and there is a lot of good stuff to discovery
Usually, I listen Oasis, Blur, U2, Jamiroquai

[bigfoot1942]

some bands i like:

- Pink Floyd
- Beach Boys
- Beatles
- John Lennon (solo )
- Dire Straits
- Evanescence
- Keane
- Bee Gees
- Brian Adams
- ELO
- Eagles
- Neil Young
- Jimi Hendrix
- Golden Earring
- Guns n Roses
- The Alan Parssons Project

And Overheat, i listened to Matchstick Man, and i noticed some tings:

- the vocals could use some reverb (Australia needs it too, the cool guitar reverb thingy but flat voices...)
- the drums are very soft
- the bass guitar needs extra low (so it needs to be louder below 200Hz) and less 200-500Hz... and more treble.
- the background vocals need to be louder, and i cant hear if there are one or two background vocals, but if there are two i would put one only left and the other one right. (to create a better stereo-effect).

oh, i forgot to mention (but thanks to the edit button
you guys sound pretty good, i must admit.

btw, how did you record these songs?

one more comment:
perhaps you should re-do the part 0.48-0.54 of the song "rooftop Gardens". At 0.54 i think i can hear what you tried to do but it didnt work imho.

[Overheat]

Hey bigfoot,

Thanks for the feedback man, it's really appreciated. This is exactly the sort of information we need to be able to improve with our future records.

This CD has already been released, but I'll take into account your notes if we rerelease it and we'll almost definately use your advice to improve any tracks we record in future as we use pretty much the same sort of sound for the majority of our records (if it aint broke, don't fix it - in this case, it sounds like it needs to be fixed )

I was happy with all songs except Rooftop Gardens when we released the EP, but we didn't have time to remix it as Wes (the writer and singer) was going to Australia (and is still there). All feedback is greatly appreciated

The songs were recording in a small room in Wes' house with Wes' portable studio. The drums were recorded in our old practice room, with the same equipment.

Not sure what ur referring to at 0.54 on Rooftop Gardens btw, something to do with the chorus?

Thanks again for ur help

[bigfoot1942]

Originally Posted by Overheat

Hey bigfoot,

Thanks for the feedback man, it's really appreciated. This is exactly the sort of information we need to be able to improve with our future records.

This CD has already been released, but I'll take into account your notes if we rerelease it and we'll almost definately use your advice to improve any tracks we record in future as we use pretty much the same sort of sound for the majority of our records (if it aint broke, don't fix it - in this case, it sounds like it needs to be fixed )

it isnt broken, niether does it need to be fixed.
it could use some improvement, hence the difference

I was happy with all songs except Rooftop Gardens when we released the EP, but we didn't have time to remix it as Wes (the writer and singer) was going to Australia (and is still there). All feedback is greatly appreciated

The songs were recording in a small room in Wes' house with Wes' portable studio. The drums were recorded in our old practice room, with the same equipment.

Not sure what ur referring to at 0.54 on Rooftop Gardens btw, something to do with the chorus?

no, why would you think that? i think youre (part of) the chorus, because the chorus sound a little afraid to be heard but they shouldnt be.
anyhow, the part im talking about is http://home.tiscali.nl/bosaap/cut.wma .
i improved it a little bit by lowering the volume on the "uh"s in fromt of the sentences: http://home.tiscali.nl/bosaap/littlebitbetter.wma (it sounds a little weird because the volume is lowered suddenly but i hope you get the essage)

its not that the tune is wrong, but it does sound a little bit unnatural, if you know what i mean. On a natural sounding song you can know what tune is coming, and if youre wrong, the songwriter has found a tune that fits perfectly as well, or one that sounds even better.
as example (for that natural tunes stuff: http://home.tiscali.nl/bosaap/perfectguitarsolo.wma ).

and keep in mind: all im saying is just a personal opinion, and it depends on (musical) taste as well

[Overheat]

Well, I'm still not sure what you're talking about regarding the Rooftop Gardens song, sorry.

I do like the live Brothers In Arms clip that you sent me though, which album is that from? My favourite piece of Dire Straits soloing is on the alchemy album - Sultans of Swing - that song sends whivers up my spine it's so good

[bigfoot1942]

nevermind.
that dire straits part came from their cd "on the night" (live).
it sounds _excellent_ imho

[Daniel]

Jesus christ I can never keep track with this post. I like house, chill, trance, classic, soundtrack music and rock. Period. Favourite artist is Moby and fav. band is Coldplay.

Simple eyh?

[Overheat]

Coldplay are artists too you know

[Daniel]

Yeah I know, thats why theyre a band and Moby is not a band.

[jasonchiu]

everyone listen to

my chemical romance - i'm not okay
crossfade - cold
50 cent Game - this is how we do (this one ait that good at the start)

[Overheat]

MCR aren't bad - kind of emo tho - as for the rest - you can keep em

this is what I'm enjoying at the moment - http://launch.yahoo.com/launchcast/s...tion.asp?i=614



Recognise any of those pics and you're bound to like this station
Now that's what I call good music - ahhh!

[Greatgraddage]

I'm a big fan of stuff like Coldplay, Travis, Stereophonics, Manic Street Preachers etc. I'm also a fan of older stuff like The Beatles, The Kinks, Meat Loaf (I know he's still releasing stuff but it's pants) etc.