Whats the story with Hot Hatch's...

[BlaRo]

Originally Posted by peter3hg2

The fact is a typical family with 2.4 kids don't need a great hulking giant.
Theres no need for extra space than is provided by a Golf (I fit comfortably in the back and I'm 6ft2). Theres also no point paying for twice the amount of fuel when you can go just as fast in a hatchback.
The R32 is only 0.1 seconds slower to 62mph than the 5.7 Hemi 300c so I can't really see any way the 300C would leave it in a different "time zone". Infact with any corners the GTi would kick the 300C into the middle of next week.

So by your argument peter3hg2, nobody really needs a Jaguar XJ, BMW 7-Series, Mercedes S-Class, or Audi A8, all of which are on par with or bigger than the 300C. Just because you have been raised in a different car culture doesn't mean that people from other cultures are completely wrong. Why don't we just all jam our families in the back of a Honda Insight?

What most people forget when arguing that everybody should be in smaller cars is the power of choice. Choice is what lets us buy a "big, hulking giant" or an "underpowered Euro hatch" and be comfortable with it. If I choose to drive around downtown New York City in a ChevroForDodgeYota TahoExpeDuranSequoia and blast P Diddy albums from behind tinted windows, that's my choice and I can do so legally; nobody should be able to force them to do anything otherwise. It's not a smart choice, in fact it's fucking retarded, but if we start imposing on it it becomes a slippery slope.

[Peter3hg]

Originally Posted by BlaRo

So by your argument peter3hg2, nobody really needs a Jaguar XJ, BMW 7-Series, Mercedes S-Class, or Audi A8, all of which are on par with or bigger than the 300C. Just because you have been raised in a different car culture doesn't mean that people from other cultures are completely wrong. Why don't we just all jam our families in the back of a Honda Insight?

What most people forget when arguing that everybody should be in smaller cars is the power of choice. Choice is what lets us buy a "big, hulking giant" or an "underpowered Euro hatch" and be comfortable with it. If I choose to drive around downtown New York City in a ChevroForDodgeYota TahoExpeDuranSequoia and blast P Diddy albums from behind tinted windows, that's my choice and I can do so legally; nobody should be able to force them to do anything otherwise. It's not a smart choice, in fact it's fucking retarded, but if we start imposing on it it becomes a slippery slope.

If you read my next post you would find I said we like Hot Hatches because of the price. I know it's a free country and I wasn't knocking large cars in general. I was just answering to Stevin Levin making stupid claims about the 300c.

[Steve Levin]

Originally Posted by peter3hg2

SRT-8 £40,000. R32 Dsg £25,000. I don't care that its cheaper for you Americans as the thread is about the European obsession with Hot Hatches. This entirely explains why we like them, they are relatively cheap, very practical and can still beat most cars on the road in performance terms.

In other words, as I originally said, the extremely anti-automotive environment of Europe forces you to just scrape by with what you can manage.

The obsession with hot hatches is because that's what's been forced on you, not what you really want. Real automotive enthusiast ALWAYS want more power.

Steve

[Redliner]

Originally Posted by Steve Levin

In other words, as I originally said, the extremely anti-automotive environment of Europe forces you to just scrape by with what you can manage.

The obsession with hot hatches is because that's what's been forced on you, not what you really want. Real automotive enthusiast ALWAYS want more power.

Steve

Whoa. Hold it right there. I think it would be best to say that Europeans favor smaller cars with power. Just because it does not have a Hemi, it does not mean it's weak. Hot hatches have a fair amount of power, and since they are lighter than american muscle cars, they have a pretty good power to weight ratio. Lotuses are the perfect example. Don't mix personal taste for lack of option.

[Peter3hg]

Originally Posted by Steve Levin

In other words, as I originally said, the extremely anti-automotive environment of Europe forces you to just scrape by with what you can manage.

The obsession with hot hatches is because that's what's been forced on you, not what you really want. Real automotive enthusiast ALWAYS want more power.

Steve

Mclaren F1, SLR, Enzo, Konigsegg CCX, Bugatti Veyron. You see we have as much choice of powerful cars as you it's just we're not obsessed with power. We can look beyond the bhp column and think what would be practical. After all a car is likely to be the second biggest investment you are going to make.

[sandor_]

Originally Posted by Steve Levin

In other words, as I originally said, the extremely anti-automotive environment of Europe forces you to just scrape by with what you can manage.

The obsession with hot hatches is because that's what's been forced on you, not what you really want. Real automotive enthusiast ALWAYS want more power.

Steve

i think that is backwards. in the US, i have very little choice when it comes to car size and to fuel type.

How many non-hybrid, 45+ mpg car makes can i buy in the US? How many 60+ mpg? How many 250+ hp 1000 kg cars? How many sub compacts? how many 1.2 L engines? how many cars that would be great in my urban area, increase parking, decrease fuel consumption etc etc. In europe, you CAN get all these cars relatively easily, heck, you can even get a diesel focus (and 'Murican auto geniuses say the reason we dont have diesel cars is because the "Big 3" would have to revamp all their production lines...) . You can also get behemoths-escalades, 7-series, s class, ford gts, etc. In the US we are the ones that dont have a choice.

[teeb]

*deleted post*

[Blind_Io]

All you have to do is look - American car makers are not making the Hot Hatches because there is less demand and import car makers have that segment of the market coverd.

Hatches available in the US:

Mazda 3 5Door and Mazda Speed 3
Ford Focus and all the varioius permutations
Honda Civic Si (although this year it's more of a coupe than a hatch)
Acrua RSX, coupe with a hatchback
Golf
Golf GTI
Golf TDI for your MPG
Mini Cooper, pretty pricy IMHO

Sure we don't have any of the French badges - and that's fine, you can keep them. We also don't get Alfas, but they are also known to fall appart. You know, it seems that the US does not have the corner on the bad car market, nor is Europe free of them. Wasn't it in the last Top Gear Motoring Survey that 7 of the 10 bottom cars were French and another was a Mercedez? I know there are not that many American cars on the survey, but clearly there were some people who were very dissatisfied with their cars. VW has been plauged with problems in their Jetta line - which is mostly made in Mexico. Mercedes has had decreasing quality since the mid 1990s. Before you jump on this as being America's fault because some models are produced here keep in mind that both Honda and Toyota have plants in the US and they are consistently the most reliable and well built cars in the world. This shows that it is the company, not the country of manufacture that determines the quality of the product.

Everytime we start talking about European vs American it turns into a culture war. What we need to look at is why. Look at the history of the car in our two cultures and we can find the answer. In the US the car started out much as it did in Europe, a rich-man's plaything and status symbol with the finest custom coach work mounted on the finest hand crafted motors. Then came Henry Ford and the Model T, the car for every man. It was basic, it was simple it was cheaply built and it was affordable. This mentality continued through WWII, as the US produced aircraft, tanks, rifles, and every other peice of military equipment - enough to supply our own forces, and Russia, and the UK. Our Sherman Tanks were not the best, with weaker guns and thinner armor than the German Tigers, but we could make 10 Shermans for every 1 Tiger in the same amount of time and using the same amount of labor. Skip ahead to the 1950s - the age of the nuclear family, suburbia and the interstate freeway system. On a Saturday night the sport of choice is "dragging" or "cruising" Main Street. Every town accross the US lit up with headlights as cars gleaming with chrome and rumbling with V8s drive past one another. Occasionally the street would empty - a race was on outside of town. The Quarter Mile was the yardstick by which your car was measured; this was brough on by two things: the orderly quarter mile long blocks in most American towns (as opposed to the winding villiage lanes of Europe) and long straight sections of highway crossing the open country (again, not usually found in Europe). In a straight line race you want lots of horsepower, large rear wheels, and a motor mounted far enough back to put weight on the back wheels but far enough forward to keep the front end from lifting off. The cars had to be cheap enough for a young guy to afford and simple enough to be worked on under a tree. Pre-war automobiles that had been left out to rust during the gas rationing of WWII were perfect. New cars in the 1950s were making use of the new Freeway system and the American family took vacationing to the roadways. Even well into the 1970's airline travel was for "the Jet Set" and out of reach of most Americans. Many cars were designed to keep the family comfortable during long car trips.

Now look at how this differs from Europe and the UK. The race culture alone is so different: Cafe racers instead of quarter mile drag racing necessitates a smaller lighter car that corners better. Europe was already grown up with all the land available already in use, this cut down on urban sprawl - something America is known for. Land is more precious in Europe and there is no room for large parking lots, housing developments with 2 and 3 car garages attached to each home, or wide streets with plenty of parking. The US has land in abundance but it's in short supply in Europe. Also, look at the cities. American cities are designed with the car in mind, they were developed along side the car and although European cities share some of the same problems of parking it is less severe in the US.

It all comes down to space. The US has alot of it, Europe doesn't. Americans also demand more personal space than Europeans (studies have shown this). We generally use larger cars for the long distances between destinations while Europeans generally use smaller cars- or so I thought. Looking around I see far more small cars on the road than large ones, the other day I thought I was flying in formation with the Civic demonstration team. Europeans are no strangers to large cars, Jaguar, Mercedes, Pugeot, Audi, Volvo, and even VW have large cars in their lineup.

Everyone needs to get past their prejudices - in the US there is an increasing shift to smaller more fuel efficient and small sporty cars, especially in the cities. In the farming and ranching areas of the country a hot hatch is out of place and useless when you need a pickup truck or an SUV - the same way a pickup would be useless in downtown London. Also, many parts of the US see a great amount of snowfall and many areas can be snowed in for days until plows make it out to all the rural roads. Even in cities like Salt Lake and Colorado Springs, storms can move in fast and strand motorists when the plows can't keep up. Small AWD cars are fine for traction, but when the snow is over the hood it does not matter how many wheels are turning.

Of all the places I have lived in the US I have found that people tend to buy cars to fit the need of the area. Salt Lake is known for large families, lots of snow and taking the boat to the lake on the weekends- so 4 door trucks and V8 SUVs are common, and many of the cars are 4WD (in fact the Audi dealership will only import Quattro models) Out here in the San Francisco Bay area fewere people have cars and those who do usually have smaller models. There are a few SUVs and American "Land Yachts" but there are mostly owned by people who want to be noticed. Of the few SUVs I see most are grass-and-gravel, essentially just tall cars and the others are either Cadillacs or Hummers with big chrome rims. But as I said, these are the exceptions, not the rule. Genreally I see small cars on the road - mostly variations of the Honda Civic or Ford Focus.

Now, can we please put our sweeping gernalizations aside and respect the cultural differenes of our two regions?

[Steve Levin]

Originally Posted by sandor_

i think that is backwards. in the US, i have very little choice when it comes to car size and to fuel type.

How many non-hybrid, 45+ mpg car makes can i buy in the US? How many 60+ mpg? How many 250+ hp 1000 kg cars? How many sub compacts? how many 1.2 L engines? how many cars that would be great in my urban area, increase parking, decrease fuel consumption etc etc.

There's no doubt that the tiny car market (such as the Ka and Fiesta) is not big in the US because, as we've said, there's simply not a driving need for them. As far as diesels go, I'm hopeful that as 'clean' diesel is introduced this September (that is, diesel as you've known it in Europe for several years now), that diesels will be able to overcome the "smoky, stinky" label and become more prominent here. Broadly speaking, for the non-enthusiast car, diesels are an excellent choice.

And as far as the smaller pertrol choices, again, that's been market driven. A Camry (which is a bit bigger than an Avensis) with a 2.4 litre I-4 is a capable car, but with the 1.8 most Euro cars would come with, it simply would not offer enough performance to interest most of the market.

So again, we return to the original premise I stated: it's less a question of good versus bad, but, rather, the market conditions. Europe effectively punishes anything other than smaller, fuel efficient cars. Hence, the obsession with 'hot hatches.' The US punishes small car drivers by making them scared of being eaten by bigger cars, hence, you don't see the Ka, or 1.3 litre Foci, or 1.8 liter Camrys.

It shouldn't be a cultural debate.

Steve

[Peter3hg]

Originally Posted by Steve Levin

So again, we return to the original premise I stated: it's less a question of good versus bad, but, rather, the market conditions. Europe effectively punishes anything other than smaller, fuel efficient cars. Hence, the obsession with 'hot hatches.' The US punishes small car drivers by making them scared of being eaten by bigger cars, hence, you don't see the Ka, or 1.3 litre Foci, or 1.8 liter Camrys.
Steve

I agree with most of your points but I don't see where your coming from about "punishing large car drivers". Sure fuels more expensive but its all proportional. When I get a car fuel consumption won't even be a slight consideration.

[Cobol74]

^ Fuel consumption is a consideration for Mr. High Milage Family man. I know where of I speak. Mortgage, Wife, Kids, 2xcars - the missus must have one as the public transport in my area is shockingly bad. Suddenly doing the miles per gallon calculation, and the diesel vs petrol calculation becomes important. When the Mortgage is paid off, the kids have flown the nest and the wife has left you taking most of your money then you can think about buying a car for yourself, except as the wife has your money you are stuck with a 10 year old fiesta - C'est la vie.

[sandor_]

Originally Posted by Steve Levin

There's no doubt that the tiny car market (such as the Ka and Fiesta) is not big in the US because, as we've said, there's simply not a driving need for them. As far as diesels go, I'm hopeful that as 'clean' diesel is introduced this September (that is, diesel as you've known it in Europe for several years now), that diesels will be able to overcome the "smoky, stinky" label and become more prominent here. Broadly speaking, for the non-enthusiast car, diesels are an excellent choice.

And as far as the smaller pertrol choices, again, that's been market driven. A Camry (which is a bit bigger than an Avensis) with a 2.4 litre I-4 is a capable car, but with the 1.8 most Euro cars would come with, it simply would not offer enough performance to interest most of the market.

So again, we return to the original premise I stated: it's less a question of good versus bad, but, rather, the market conditions. Europe effectively punishes anything other than smaller, fuel efficient cars. Hence, the obsession with 'hot hatches.' The US punishes small car drivers by making them scared of being eaten by bigger cars, hence, you don't see the Ka, or 1.3 litre Foci, or 1.8 liter Camrys.

It shouldn't be a cultural debate.

Steve

i'm of the mind that the consumers dont "need" a Chevy Suburban for one person to commute 30 miles (each way) to work in - but i pass 10-15 everyday on my commute. I believe that the manufacturers have created the demand for the large SUVs through pretty marketing (just like DeBeers did with diamonds 70+ years ago) And if they actually made and marketed the small cars, they would sell too.

yeah, i believe, partly, in big bad business causing the problems.

[smtk]

All i have to say is i love vickys hot hatch

[transtek]

A lot of this has to do with the size of towns and cities in europe, which are a lot smaller than this side of the Atlantic (sorry, but I refuse to call it a "pond").
Due to this, having a smaller car in most cases makes more sense, easier parking, easy to go through old, narrow streets, etc. Add to that petrol (gas) prices that are beyond the imagination of most people in the States, means small-engines, then mix-in a tradition of motorracing and you've got the perfect recipe for small but practical cars, with powerful little engines and great handling (lots of corners in Europe!) - something VW caught onto very early with the first Golf GTI, or Rabbit in the US. They went out of fashion for a while, mainly due to an increase in disposable income in the UK, being replaced for a decade by small, two-seater open-top sportscars, but are now back in favour again.
Now I hope everyone was listening, including you at the back, as there is going to be a test on this on Monday!

[Wizegui]

So your just saying Colin Chapmin's philosophy is all wrong. Your saying that the whole world should drive huge 400 cubic inch monsters that only go in a straight line. REAL car enthusiasts know balance and balance is just as important as power.

-duders

[Steve Levin]

Originally Posted by Wizegui

So your just saying Colin Chapmin's philosophy is all wrong. Your saying that the whole world should drive huge 400 cubic inch monsters that only go in a straight line. REAL car enthusiasts know balance and balance is just as important as power.

I seem to recall that back in the 1960's this was the philosophy held by most folks at LeMans, until Ford brought the monster GT-40's and so dominated that the 400+ cubic inch "monsters" had to be outlawed to give everyone else a chance to win.

REAL car enthusiasts would give their eyeteeth to drive a Cobra, which epitomized stuffing a large engine into a small car.

The best cars have lots of power and lots of balance. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Steve

[Blind_Io]

Steve,

Very true. I recently saw a Cobra 427 that was hand built by Shelby's team manager. He mounted the motor 5 inches farther back than a stock Cobra to give the car better balance.

[BlaRo]

Originally Posted by Wizegui

So your just saying Colin Chapmin's philosophy is all wrong. Your saying that the whole world should drive huge 400 cubic inch monsters that only go in a straight line. REAL car enthusiasts know balance and balance is just as important as power.

REAL car enthusiasts know that there's many different car cultures embracing the art of driving and aren't stupid enough to rush to one and ridicule the other with stupid comments like this.

Blind Io summed it up really well in that essay of his. Did you even bother looking at it?

[Steve Levin]

Originally Posted by Blind_Io

Very true. I recently saw a Cobra 427 that was hand built by Shelby's team manager. He mounted the motor 5 inches farther back than a stock Cobra to give the car better balance.

So -- sort of back on topic...what IS the ultimate "hot hatch"?

If the Cobra Daytona's had a hatchback they'd be pretty far up the list

Of course, if we include limited runs, I suppose we should include that two-engined Golf that VW took to Pike's Peak a number of years ago.

Steve

[The_Finn]

Lancia delta Integrale HF Evoluzione II
Although i think that technically thats a homologation special and not a hot hatch even if it is Hot and a Hatchback...

Evo Magazine really likes the Renaultsport Clio Trophy of the current crop

but they call the Renault Clio Williams - Best Hot Hatch Ever

for what its worth most of the clios seem to have high scores as well as the mk2 GTi

tf