SILLY SEASON 2009/2010

[justvisiting]

Originally Posted by MattD1zzl3

Its not like a ferrari f1 car and a renault f1 car are all that differant anyway.

I don't know about that Matt. Just because they run the same regulations doesnt mean they are not different. All the cars have different engine characteristics, aero differences, and suspension systems which create completely different balances. Its too much to say an f1 car is an f1 car.

[stevanford1]

Originally Posted by MattD1zzl3

Zombie Ayrton Senna can kiss my american ass.

Was this really necessary ?

[Dr_Grip]

What everyone (including Fiat's factory team in their press release) seems to forget is that the "new" Lotus is Proton's factory team. Just like Fiat races under the name of the traditional sports car maker that's part of their company (making the then cash-starved midfielder Ferrari their factory team in 1970) Proton/Team Malaysia chose to compete under the name of the traditional sportscar maker/F1 Team they happen to own. So no matter how Lotus this team is, what it definitely is is another team backed by a major carmaker. If we count McLaren as a factory team, we got to count them as well.

[MattD1zzl3]

Originally Posted by stevanford1

Was this really necessary ?

I was just joking around in a Dennis Leary-insult comedian kind of way.

[piercey]

In a move that will surprise no one, Buemi has re-signed with STR: http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headline...09115025.shtml

Drivers with contracts or team ending at seasons end (11):

Heikki Kovalainen (Probably gone, but expected to stay in F1. New team?)
Nick Heidfeld (Sauber?)
Romain Grosjean (Future has been thrown up in the air, but I expect he'll re-sign, at the least a test-driver.)
Jaime Alguersuari (Expect to re-sign)
Nico Rosberg (Brawn? Leaving Williams.)
Kazuki Nakajima (Leaving Williams. Maybe out of F1.)
Adrian Sutil (Re-sign?)
Jarno Trulli (Toyota quit. Malaysia?)
Timo Glock (Toyota quit. Renault? McLaren?)
Jenson Button (Contract disputes ftw! He ain't leaving.)
Kimi Raikkonen (On his way to McLaren?)

Seats open (13-15):

McLaren x1
Ferrari x0
Toyota loves hybrids too much
Renault x1
[strike]Red Bull x0[strike/]
Toro Rosso x1
Williams x0
Force India x1 (**)
Brawn GP x2
USF1 x2
Dallara-Campos x1
Manor F1 x2
Lotus Malaysia F1 x2
** Sauber F1 x2 (If they take Toyota's spot)

Drivers signed through next season (11-12?):

Lewis Hamilton - McLaren (He ain't leaving.)
Felipe Massa - Ferrari (Has a seat, according to Luca.)
Fernando Alonso - Ferrari (Signed 9/30. Three years.)
Giancarlo Fisichella - Ferrari (Signed contract at Monza, will become test driver after this year.)
Mark Webber - Red Bull Racing (just signed extension)
Sebastien Vettel - RBR (He ain't leaving)
**Vitantonio Liuzzi - Force India (Signed through 2011, with race seat clause for next year.)
Robert Kubica - Renault (Signed 10/07)
Bruno Senna - Campos (signed 10/31. Rookie.)
Rubens Barrichello - Williams (Signed 11/2)
Nico Hulkenberg - Williams (Signed 11/2. Rookie.)
Sebastien Buemi - Toro Rosso (Signed 11/9.)

11 seats + 1 test drive seat are signed, only 15 race seats are up in the air.

Thoughts?

[justvisiting]

I think Kimi will be out of F1, and Rosberg is saying he will be a contender, so if I were him I'd go McLaren. Heikki hopefully gets the vacant seat, but may end up at a lower team. He'd be a good lead driver for a new team.

Jenson wants 6mil, but Brawn can probably do 4-5 max, so they are allowing him freedom of sponsorship deals. Which is kind of sad, as 6 million is still low for a champion. lol kimi got 25(ridiculous) alonso a double takes ~10, while lewis gets 8.

Timo is going to Renault with Kubica (but this may all change come December), hence why they didn't confirm Timo, as theyd have to buy him out.

I'm excited to see how this all turns out, but it goes so slow.. It probably wont be all confirmed til January or beyond.

[MadCow809]

I doubt that Rosberg will go to McLaren.

[zephyrus17]

Kimi is a smart man. He knows that it's impossible to be paid anywhere near $25mil again. And if his managers are anywhere as smart, they should know too.

[Dr_Grip]

Originally Posted by zephyrus17

Kimi is a smart man. He knows that it's impossible to be paid anywhere near $25mil again. And if his managers are anywhere as smart, they should know too.

...but they both know that running around asking for that much as long as possible (which means as long as 2+ teams are negotiationg with them) is the best way to ensure them staying as high in the two-digit millions as possible.

[zephyrus17]

Either that or they get none. They can be so greedy sometimes.

[MadCow809]

Originally Posted by zephyrus17

Either that or they get none. They can be so greedy sometimes.

greedy?

wtf are you smoking? let's see how you will react if it's your hard earned money that's about to get halved or less.

It IS the manager's job to get the best deal possible for the driver. And it IS Kimi's right to ask for the same amount, cos he fully deserves it.

And him being a formal world champion makes this negotiation even easier, cos Kimi pretty much got the job done already (in 2007). If he doesn't like the contract or the offers, he can always go somewhere else.

[zephyrus17]

I didn't mean it that way, but the things is, if they keep asking for too high a price, then no one might hire him. And we all want kimi to race. Kimi wants kimi to race.

[MadCow809]

Originally Posted by zephyrus17

I didn't mean it that way, but the things is, if they keep asking for too high a price, then no one might hire him. And we all want kimi to race. Kimi wants kimi to race.

I'd love to see him race too, but only if he is happy about the team and contract.

And he is not going to be happy about 1/2 of his current salary, no one in the world would be happy about it.

[zephyrus17]

Yeah.. Fo shizzle

[Suspense]

Originally Posted by MadCow809

And he is not going to be happy about 1/2 of his current salary, no one in the world would be happy about it.

That's a ridiculous application of logic right there. If no one will pay him more than half of his current salary, then he has no option but to be 'happy' with that or fuck off. You don't seem to understand that successful negotiation requires both sides to negotiate, not just one side coming in and starting and ending the dialogue with "I want this, give it to me." That's just childish and will not result in him getting a contract for 2010.

If Kimi can't get a seat for 2010 then he has no one to blame but himself and his management for poor negotiation. If he doesn't want what they're offering, then that's his choice to make, but you can't say that the teams should be offering any more than they are "just because" he's got that in the past, when no other driver has.

[Red_Bull]

Originally Posted by MadCow809

greedy?

wtf are you smoking? let's see how you will react if it's your hard earned money that's about to get halved or less.

It IS the manager's job to get the best deal possible for the driver. And it IS Kimi's right to ask for the same amount, cos he fully deserves it.

And him being a formal world champion makes this negotiation even easier, cos Kimi pretty much got the job done already (in 2007). If he doesn't like the contract or the offers, he can always go somewhere else.

I think McLaren are being fair in baulking at Kimi's wage demands (if that is the major sticking point). What sort of committment can he offer the team, the shareholders, sponsors, and other parties with a vested interest? They'll want their money's worth. In addition to his on track performance, they want to ensure their partners can have access to Kimi via sponsorship events and not have him bugger off after one year.

It's basically a trade off over how much McLaren and their partners are willing to pay, and how many appearances and sponsor schmoozing sessions Kimi is willing to do. He wants a high salary with as few appearances as possible. Naturally McLaren want the opposite. Both parties are keen for a deal to happen, but conditions have to be met.

Plus there's the little sticking point of Ferrari's offer to pay Kimi to sit out for 2010, which certainly strengthens Kimi's hand at the bargaining table.

[Necx0]

All fair points. That said in my romantic view of Kimi (yes I realise that sounds odd) he would happily accept a couple of million a year (hardly peanuts) in order to keep racing at the highest level. Still times change and as MadCow says, offering someone half their current salary to do the same job is borderline insulting, even in these exceptional circumstances.

[MadCow809]

Originally Posted by Suspense

That's a ridiculous application of logic right there. If no one will pay him more than half of his current salary, then he has no option but to be 'happy' with that or fuck off.

Originally Posted by Suspense

You don't seem to understand that successful negotiation requires both sides to negotiate, not just one side coming in and starting and ending the dialogue with "I want this, give it to me." That's just childish and will not result in him getting a contract for 2010.

You don't seem to understand the situation. Kimi doesn't need a negotiation, in fact he doesn't "need" anything. He is laying his cards on the table for McLaren. He basically is saying "Take it or leave it. I would like to pursuit another title with you, but I need to be fully satisfied with the contract"

It's the driver's self value and pride to demand the salary he feels comfortable with. Obviously it all has to be in proportion from last year's figure, which in this case... it is.

So how can it be childish if it's everyone's right to maximise the benefit from the contract? It is perfectly justified.

Originally Posted by Suspense

If Kimi can't get a seat for 2010 then he has no one to blame but himself and his management for poor negotiation. If he doesn't want what they're offering, then that's his choice to make, but you can't say that the teams should be offering any more than they are "just because" he's got that in the past, when no other driver has.

McLaren is not in the position to offer anything to Kimi, but to negotiate with Kimi's offer. Had it been a rookie driver, McLaren would have already won the war with a $0 contract, but we are talking about a man here that will only do things his way. A God in F1.

Kimi can make those demands cos of his reputation, achievements and status in F1. Like everyone other profession, F1 is no exception when it comes to salary negotiation. I think it's a very fair request from Kimi/his manager. The man is not stupid, Kimi certainly knows his options, hence the asking price of his '09 salary.

And I'm saying this with a background profession of an acting director for an interior decorating company in sales & marketing department. I have negotiated dozens of formal contracts with my staff & workers. So I know how to play this game, it's all about "want" and "value" factor.

If you were to look for the ultimate best in any particular profession, you cannot possible offer that person 50% of his normal service charge. You really need to understand this concept or people will take advantage of you in the future.

I have lost a few valuable talents in the past because I was not prepare to meet their requirement. But at the same time, I didn't bullshit them around by offering something ridiculous and absurd like 50% of their current salary. I basically told them what I could offer, and tried to convince them with other incentives. McLaren needs to do the same if they are not willing to meet Kimi's terms. There are lots of other incentives, it's not all about money. Maybe an undisputed #1 driver status in the team, or the freedom of any sponsorships, the list can go on forever.

Originally Posted by Necx0

Still times change and as MadCow says, offering someone half their current salary to do the same job is borderline insulting, even in these exceptional circumstances.

Exactly, well said.

[Dr_Grip]

Originally Posted by Suspense

That's a ridiculous application of logic right there. If no one will pay him more than half of his current salary, then he has no option but to be 'happy' with that or fuck off.

I can only repeat what Red_Bull said: There is someone who will have to pay him his current salary in exchange for him doing nothing: Ferrari.

I guess Kimi is willing to take a pay cut in order to keep racing, but a full year of eating ice cream and drinking vodka while still on Ferrari's payroll is a great alternative to taking a McLaren seat for less than, say, ten to twelve million.

[EsPpY]

I think all in all, Madcow, its just your way of describing the situation from Kimi's perspective. You take on the assumed role of Kimi, and then going around saying how you would not budge in the situation if you were him.

As Suspense said, you apply your logic; to the situation which is not yours. And TBH, you seem to have over-glorified Kimi in all these argument posts, what with the status, achievements, but ultimately, he still only has one title to his belt. But that's the only logical thing seeming as you are a fan of him. Its getting creepily close to fanboyism IMO. Sure as hell I don't go around saying other drivers don't get what they deserve to be paid in the said amount so aggresively. In a world where he does not want to adapt; ie. make more sponsor event appearances when clearly in this trade you need to for the money, he makes himself difficult to justify the pay.

Now, I don't really know where you got the scenario that Kimi, his management and McLaren are having hell over fits negotiating this contract, seriously, I think its a simple case of putting down the terms, take it or go have a sabbatical. True, maybe the terms could be unfit for him, but with the market on the whole not offering this kind of money, he doesn't have much of a choice does he?

It takes two hands to clap, if he feels insulted, then, simply not take it. I really can't see what the big hoo-ha is here. The fans want to see him, but if he does not bring money to the people who brings him out to the world to see, who would wanna do that ?

2 cents here.