24 Hours Of LeMons/Final Gear Racing fall 2009

[matt2000]

PB: My mistake I didn't realise I had to turn my head 90 degrees.

[Serj]

Originally Posted by matt2000

PB: My mistake I didn't realise I had to turn my head 90 degrees.

my fault. i was trying to cram a celphone under the hood where the car was at.

[Punisher Bass]

"I mean I'm looking at a Buick LeSabre. It was rubbish when it was new, it was built by idiots, and it's rubbish now." - Jeremy Clarkson

And with that, say hello to Ms. Magoo.



It's a 1999 Buick LeSabre Limited.

If you're wondering why the front end is all furled up like that, it's the reason why we were able to get the car so cheap. The previous owner plowed into a "10 point buck" and won. While the damage looks bad, it's mostly cosmetic. The core support took some of the impact, but that can be fixed with a bit of heat, a come-a-long, and a big hammer.









So while it's another Buick, this time it's an H body instead of a W. The H body was a creation of mid 80's GM, so while it had its fair share of problems, it's still superior to the Regal. It came out way back in 86 and is still in production today, only the current third generation is based more on the G body that underpins my Park Avenue.

This one is a second gen H body, so most of the kinks in the platform had been worked out by this point. By the late 90's GM was still doing a lot of platform sharing, but it wasn't nearly as horrendous as it was in the 80's when the only real difference between the cars was the badge. This platform was used for the Pontiac Bonneville and Oldsmobile 88, but each car wore different enough skin to make it more than a simple rebadge.

While an improvement over the W body, it still wasn't known for having a very rigid unibody. I've felt it first hand in a 90 LeSabre and I've heard stories of the doors rattling when driving over rail road tracks. Much to my surprise, the strut tower brace was standard equipment on the car.



It uses the typical strut suspension up front, but out back it's a different story. To say it's convoluted is an understatement. It's a relatively simple spring with separate shock setup, but GM had their head stuck up their ass while designing it. Several different cars had this self leveling rear end setup, but each one was a bit different for each car and each car could have had several variations of it. Some cars had the self leveling rear end, some had heavy duty self leveling rear ends, some had normal and heavy duty shocks with no self leveling feature. Some had air shocks in the front. There were also some cars where the air shocks had electrical hookups so the computer could change the valving on the fly.



If it sounds confusing, that's because it is, it's the reason why it took me 6 months to find the correct rear shocks for my own Buick. I don't know what setup this LeSabre has, but I'm sure it's going leave me with more gray hairs.

Now lets get to one of the best things about this car.



That's another 3800 V6. But this one is a Series II, it's the less powerful brother of my supercharged 3800. The Series II was a major improvement over the I. Buick not only upped the power to 205hp and 230 lb·ft of torque, but improved fuel economy and emissions. This wound up getting the engine placed on Ward's 10 Best Engines list from 95 to 97. The II in both NA and SC forms was still being placed in cars just a few years ago, and production of it as a crate engine stopped just last summer.

Not only is this a better engine than what was in the Regal, but Quiky has one in his Pontiac GP, so we both are well acquainted with them and know how to get more power out of them.

The transmission is a 4T65-E, it's an evolution of the 4T60-E that we had in the Regal. It's a lot stronger and ready to handle anything we can throw at it.





It's almost too nice to rip out

[thedguy]

so why not yank this motor and shove it in the other one you guys got?

[Punisher Bass]

Originally Posted by thedguy

so why not yank this motor and shove it in the other one you guys got?

There's several reasons for that. First, this car is in Ohio with Serj, the Regal is in Michigan and has been fed to the crusher. Second, if we wanted to deal with an engine swap we would have sourced another series I by now. Third, swapping the II into the Regal would not be an easy job. You'd have to also swap the transmission, the computers, motor mounts, replace or modify who knows what else, and then make it all play nice together.

While I'm sure someone would enjoy doing such a project, it would be just plain stupid to try it here.

[thedguy]

Originally Posted by Punisher Bass

There's several reasons for that. First, this car is in Ohio with Serj, the Regal is in Michigan and has been fed to the crusher. Second, if we wanted to deal with an engine swap we would have sourced another series I by now. Third, swapping the II into the Regal would not be an easy job. You'd have to also swap the transmission, the computers, motor mounts, replace or modify who knows what else, and then make it all play nice together.

While I'm sure someone would enjoy doing such a project, it would be just plain stupid to try it here.

uhhh why all the other crap? The blocks bolt upto the same transmissions. The displacement isn't changing among other things.

If you can run a 2002 VVT 2jz-ge off of a 1987 Toyota supra ecu/coilpacks trans etc... you can definitely keep a 3800 running where a 3800 already was. You are overthinking it my friend. It's not an SBC swap into a 240

[Twerp128]

How hard can it be?

[Punisher Bass]

Originally Posted by thedguy

You are overthinking it my friend.

No, you're not thinking enough.

The 4T60 in the Regal is simply not strong enough to handle the increase in power the II has, it sure as hell wouldn't hold up for an endurance race. So the 4T65 would have to come along for the ride.

The Series II has the same displacement, but it has a fair bit of changes both internal and external, it's not a simple drop in. While the 3800 was placed in many cars, they don't all bolt in the same way. There are several variations, some have one mount next to the head that goes to the core support, some have dual mounts in the same area, some have none at all.

Then you have to deal with the fact that you're deal with two totally different platforms, size restrictions and all that stuff. The first gen W body never had a Series II, it wasn't designed for it. You might also have to replace the drive shafts since they might not be long enough.

Then you're dealing with both computers, you need to make them work in a car they were not designed for. There are a lot of factors you need to consider, especially if you expect the car to last more than a few laps.

Could it be done? I'm sure it could be, but not by us. It would not only be illogical, but impossible given how far away we live from each other. We don't all live in SoCal where any part or tool is just around the corner and an expert on any given car subject is a phone call away. We live several states away from each other and none of us have the skills, tools, or time to engineer something like that.

And why go through all that bullshit to end up with a slightly faster, probably less reliable car when there is a superior car ready to go.

This is all moot now anyway since as I said, the car is gone.

[matt2000]

My first thought was LaSabre, but I didn't think you would be that mad.

I have to be honest and say I can't understand why you've gone for a Buick dullmobile over anything else out there. I thought the idea ws to go for something silly, like a pickup truck.

Still, I s'pose it will go nicely.

[nouseferaname90]

I still have questions as to whether this will go round faster than the crown vic, but I have not seen either car in person, so I can't properly judge.

[Punisher Bass]

Originally Posted by matt2000

My first thought was LaSabre, but I didn't think you would be that mad.

I have to be honest and say I can't understand why you've gone for a Buick dullmobile over anything else out there. I thought the idea ws to go for something silly, like a pickup truck.

Still, I s'pose it will go nicely.

I think it fits in with the spirit of the race rather nicely. We're not expecting to win the race, while that would be awesome, we just wanted a car that wasn't a pile of shit and would be reliable. And I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone has ever entered a Buick in LeMons before.

Originally Posted by nouseferaname90

I still have questions as to whether this will go round faster than the crown vic, but I have not seen either car in person, so I can't properly judge.

Well it won't be too far away in the power department, it will probably end up weighing around 1,000lbs less than the Vic when all is said and done. So we'll see what how things turn out.

[thedguy]

Perhaps you could keep full interior and working a/c then? Dress up like old men and drive around at speeds that won't cause (excessive) body roll

[Punisher Bass]

See that big black round thing next to the tire? I hate that, I really hate it. I looked at some diagrams and I'm 95% sure that it's the air compressor, but I believe it's only powering the rear shocks in this case and not the front. I wish nothing but pain and suffering on the person who ordered the car with this option.

[Mischief007]

I'll try to make it out to this.

[Punisher Bass]

Originally Posted by Mischief007

I'll try to make it out to this.

It'd make my day if multiple 3800's could show up.

[Mischief007]

About a 6 hour drive so it is nothing for me.

[Twerp128]

Originally Posted by Punisher Bass

It'd make my day if multiple 3800's could show up.

I'd take my dad's Oldsmobile Eighty Eight, but ironically it needs rear suspension work

[Punisher Bass]

Originally Posted by Twerp128

I'd take my dad's Oldsmobile Eighty Eight, but ironically it needs rear suspension work

Monroe is your friend and mine.

[Serj]

it's unlikely this machine will clock a faster laptime than the Vic, but it's lighter by at least 500lbs and the engine revs very readily so who knows! We're currently trying to sort out what is worth doing to the suspension to button it down, and despite the fact that the car has new brakes we obviously need to make those better anyway. Less mass to slow down = better braking (all other things being the same)

limited budgets really make you think about what will give you the best results for the money.

[Punisher Bass]

Originally Posted by Serj

and despite the fact that the car has new brakes we obviously need to make those better anyway. Less mass to slow down = better braking (all other things being the same)

I should point out that for some dumbass reason GM gave this car discs/drums. This really perplexes me since the older and further down on the pecking order Regal came with 4 wheel discs standard. Why give your second ranked car worse brakes? Even the Bonneville SSEi's had drums in the back.