Any other RWD purists out there?

[Posmo]

Originally Posted by sifu

for you... and how much have you driven fwd cars?

Enough to know that all you get in the winter is either horrible understeer or handbrake turns, which slow you down.

[NooDle]

you miss my point yet again.

Originally Posted by Posmo

I don't have any idea how the traffic works over there, but I don't think rwd has a disadvantage to fwd when you are sitting in a traffic jam?

so explain to me how you can "enjoy" the benefits of RWD when all you do is sit in traffic all day long. Why do I need RWD?

I think buying rwd/4wd is worth it for just that special occasion when you can use it to the fullest

I agree (OMG I agreed!), but to me, that "special occasion" would be about 0.001% of the total time I'm using the car. So I don't bother.

[Posmo]

Originally Posted by NooDle

you miss my point yet again.



so explain to me how you can "enjoy" the benefits of RWD when all you do is sit in traffic all day long. Why do I need RWD?



I agree (OMG I agreed!), but to me, that "special occasion" would be about 0.001% of the total time I'm using the car. So I don't bother.

By that reasoning we should all have VW Lupo diesels, I mean who needs fun when you can have economy and reliability?

[sifu]

throttle control is the key in also fwd... and if you understeer in public roads, you are driving too fast for given conditions..

[NooDle]

Originally Posted by Posmo

By that reasoning we should all have VW Lupo diesels, I mean who needs fun when you can have economy and reliability?

Actually, living and driving here, a Lupo diesel makes perfect sense for most people. Sad as that may be, it still doesn't make it untrue.

Also, it still doesn't mean anything RWD is automatically better than anything FWD

[public]

Hey, a Lupo 3L TDI has a handbrake.

[Posmo]

Originally Posted by NooDle

Actually, living and driving here, a Lupo diesel makes perfect sense for most people. Sad as that may be, it still doesn't make it untrue.

Also, it still doesn't mean anything RWD is automatically better than anything FWD

Which is why I never said anything like that. we are talking about things IN GENERAL here..

[prizrak]

^Dude your whole point is that RWD>FWD in 99% of the cases but its simply not true. For regular daily driving RWD, AWD and FWD make no difference whatsoever because you are sitting in slow moving traffic. Under low traction conditions such as rain and snow RWD starts to become harder to control. An RWD will hydroplane easier than FWD (because of the weight distribution)* and when it does will be more tricky to get back under control.

Another point that you are completely missing that people brought up is that while there are certain characteristics of drive train layouts that cannot be ignored, suspension design and weight distribution will make a lot of difference.

An MS3 will destroy a large number of RWD cars around the twisties including your own so would the Focus RS. Hell the old POS CRX's and EK Civics do extremely well at autocross mainly due to their very low weight.

I've said it before, I hate FWD I got an AWD car just so that I don't have to get an FWD and still be able to relax while driving around in rain/snow. However, arguing on layout alone and ignoring other factors such as weight, suspension, tires, weight distribution and road conditions is ignorant at best.

*Before you start going on with weight transfer again, I'm talking about a normal drive down a rainy highway at constant speed and hitting puddles. I've had my car hydroplane on me plenty of times because road surface is not 100% flat and some areas have more water on them then others.

[NooDle]

Originally Posted by prizrak

^Dude your whole point is that RWD>FWD in 99% of the cases but its simply not true. For regular daily driving RWD, AWD and FWD make no difference whatsoever because you are sitting in slow moving traffic.

QFT. Maybe he'll understand if I make it bright and big enough

[Posmo]

Originally Posted by prizrak

^Dude your whole point is that RWD>FWD in 99% of the cases but its simply not true. For regular daily driving RWD, AWD and FWD make no difference whatsoever because you are sitting in slow moving traffic. Under low traction conditions such as rain and snow RWD starts to become harder to control. An RWD will hydroplane easier than FWD (because of the weight distribution)* and when it does will be more tricky to get back under control.

Maybe you should go back and look at the original post. My whole point is that FOR ME, rwd is better in just about every single way. Then you came here and derailed the thread by claiming that fwd is better in the winter (which it bloody well isn't) Also, a rwd car in general will ALWAYS have a more ideal weight distribution than a fwd car. For my regular daily driving having a rwd car makes a SHIT TON of difference, and here's why:


That picture was taken 5 minutes ago from outside the house, that, to me, as a rwd driver is a wonderland.

Originally Posted by prizrak

Another point that you are completely missing that people brought up is that while there are certain characteristics of drive train layouts that cannot be ignored, suspension design and weight distribution will make a lot of difference.

Im not missing it, I already pointed out in my previous posts that rwd will have a more ideal weight distribution. And as suck, IN GENERAL rwd cars will handle better than their fwd brethen.

Originally Posted by prizrak

An MS3 will destroy a large number of RWD cars around the twisties including your own so would the Focus RS. Hell the old POS CRX's and EK Civics do extremely well at autocross mainly due to their very low weight.

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT CARS IN GENERAL I could say in the exact same way that fwd is slow and useless because a Z06 will rape an MS3. Of course a Focus RS will rape my car, it costs a 100 times more!

Originally Posted by prizrak

I've said it before, I hate FWD I got an AWD car just so that I don't have to get an FWD and still be able to relax while driving around in rain/snow. However, arguing on layout alone and ignoring other factors such as weight, suspension, tires, weight distribution and road conditions is ignorant at best.

Im not ignoring any of those.

Originally Posted by prizrak

*Before you start going on with weight transfer again, I'm talking about a normal drive down a rainy highway at constant speed and hitting puddles. I've had my car hydroplane on me plenty of times because road surface is not 100% flat and some areas have more water on them then others.

What was the point of this paragraph?

Unbelievable..

[public]

Originally Posted by Posmo

That picture was taken 5 minutes ago from outside the house, that, to me, as a rwd driver is a wonderland.

Hey, that's a conveniently placed street lamp.

[Posmo]

Originally Posted by public

Hey, that's a conveniently placed street lamp.

You'd have to be a fucking idiot to hit that :p Besides, that is a very blind corner due to the hedges, so I generally take it slow around it

[LeVeL]

I think Posmo's point is that you don't spend 100% of your time sitting in traffic. Whatever time you spend in traffic, drivetrain layout doesn't matter, as mentioned numerous times earlier; however, whenever you are not in traffic (even if its 1% of your driving), then RWD is more fun.

To be honest, I do agree that RWD is better than FWD. There are very few occasions when FWD is better. In the city it wouldn't make a difference; out here in the boonies where my school is, roads are twisty and empty. I have numerous friends with RWD that get sideways on just about every corner. That said, I'd like to make two points: a) FWD isn't nearly as bad as most people (Posmo) make it out to be, and b) whenever I'm pulling out of a sidestreet in the wet and I get one-tire-fire above quarter throttle (in the Maxima with its LSD both wheels would spin - it was only marginally quicker than the open-diff Accord) I wish I had AWD that would just grip and go. Either way, I think I want to step away from FWD in my next car and move on.

[prizrak]

Originally Posted by Posmo

Ooh that is a very pretty picture. I'm jealous

I wish I had AWD that would just grip and go

AWD is booooring

What was the point of this paragraph?

Unbelievable..

The point is that you were saying that in the wet no one is stuck no matter the layout and that weight transfer will neutralize the difference between FWD and RWD once you start accelerating. What I was saying was that FWD is actually better in the rain because it is more resistant to hydroplaning and that at constant speed weight distribution of the car makes a difference. This is to answer your question on how FWD is better in the rain than RWD, reason why I brought up my car is that you also mentioned that there is rarely any random debris on the road that would cause a snap under/oversteer condition. So I was telling you from personal experience that on a wet road there are plenty of puddles that would be able to cause hydroplaning and lead to an over/understeer condition in just about any car.

I'm glad that you prefer RWD and that you are good at handling your car under adverse conditions but at the same time you give FWD entirely too little credit and RWD entirely too much credit when it comes to your argument.

[LeVeL]

Originally Posted by prizrak

AWD is booooring

Says the man with an Audi

[prizrak]

Originally Posted by LeVeL

Says the man with an Audi

Yep I know first hand

Posmo,

I think you need a chance to drive some good FWD and AWD cars before making up your mind. I absolutely hated FWD till I got to drive around in a Del Sol and an A3, while I still would not prefer them I can see how FWD can also be fun. Would definitely take a Mini if offered

[Night_Hawk]

How would FWD make hydroplaning not so bad?

I can't think of anything other than tires making any direct difference here.

[NooDle]

No I cannot let this go on like this

Originally Posted by Posmo

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT CARS IN GENERAL I could say in the exact same way that fwd is slow and useless because a Z06 will rape an MS3. Of course a Focus RS will rape my car, it costs a 100 times more!

Yes, even in general, for 99% of the people on the road today, FWD is perfectly fine, even in rain/snow conditions.

We're not talking about "which is fastest", we're not talking about "which is best on rain/snow/tarmac/mud/moon surface". We're talking about "what is BEST overall".

Let me put it this way : would you like to drive around in a world where every 16yo kid who only has to do one idiot test written exam drives around in a 3 tonne truck, in the snow, with RWD only?

Everyone would just die. Because not everyone understands how RWD works and why. I say, the people that don't (which is the majority of the population), give them FWD since they don't care anyway.

[prizrak]

Originally Posted by Night_Hawk

How would FWD make hydroplaning not so bad?

I can't think of anything other than tires making any direct difference here.

It may have been a bad choice of words. There are a few things,
More weight over the driven wheels will add to traction so it will take more for an FWD to hydroplane.
FWD's will start to understeer while hydroplaning which is easier/more instinctive to recover from than oversteer (tho for some reason I don't mind it when my car is oversteering but understeer scares the shit out of me).

[LeVeL]

FWD hydroplanes pretty easily. The lady whose Subaru I tried to kill knows this very well...

no, I was not driving like I had wasabe up my backside - I was taking a turn at 10mph or so and hit a puddle