Any other RWD purists out there?

[Steve Levin]

Originally Posted by Spectre

Most RWD cars won't spin if you lift off mid corner. The original 911 will because the weight balance is screwed up (40/60) and the suspension wasn't actually very good.

The US version of the car, the Merkur XR4Ti, was 53/47 weight distribution. That's not exactly a whole lot of front weight bias there, Steve. Most properly designed RWD cars are similarly at or close to perfect neutral weight balance. My XJR is 51/49, my Series III is 54/46, my Pathfinder is 50/50 (iirc), my former Z31 300ZX Turbo was 52/48, the 190E (non Evo) was 53/47 (the Evos were 50/50), the E32 750iL was 50.7/49.3, etc., etc.

The cars with a not-insignificant forward weight bias are the Fail Wheel Drive cars, which can have 60/40 or worse weight distribution.

A hint should be that it only took a 40/60 balance to create a car recognized as a massive handful.

3 percent is a lot.

And trust me, if you are on the limit and lift -- putting weight on the nose once you've started a rotation -- you WILL spin. I see it all the time when I instruct and people that say "I know what I'm doing" actually get out on a track and really put the cars on edge -- something that should NEVER be done intentionally on a public road.

Steve

[Posmo]

Originally Posted by Steve Levin

"Massive Tank Slapper" at best.

"Slammed into a tree" is more typically going to be the result.

Can you enlighten us as to your level of driver education? I think everyone would appreciate hearing exactly how much training you've had and by whom with regards to performance driving.

Steve

SO you want me to explain in close detail, how after the slide initiates, you take a bit of throttle away, apply opposite lock, and as the rear starts gaining grip, you gradually take off the opposite lock and get slowly back on the power?

I can't explain things in vivid detail here, and you shouldn't assume anything based on what I don't write. No need to come boasting here with your oh so nice race license. I have the same level of driver education as 95% of the people here. I'd be very glad if you could answer all of the questions me and Spectre raised in our previous posts, instead of going after this Straw man of yours.

[Steve Levin]

Originally Posted by Posmo

I have the same level of driver education as 95% of the people here.

And you have the same level of surgical experience as probably 99% of us.

Does that make you qualified to operate since you've watched House for five seasons?

Steve

[Posmo]

Originally Posted by Steve Levin

And you have the same level of surgical experience as probably 99% of us.

Does that make you qualified to operate since you've watched House for five seasons?

Steve

Still going after the man of straw I see. If you don't want to have conversation, get out of this thread.


Oh, and btw, im not a huge fan of House.

[LeVeL]

While I respect anyone with a racing license, I feel the need to point out that self-admnistered experience is also very valueable. A good friend of mine is a very competitive autocrosses who is getting dangerously close to FTD with a street-legal CRX. He hasn't had any racing instruction, he just races a lot. I was with him on a curvy backroad when he tried trail-braking for the first time, for example, and realized that it tucked the nose in nicely. I'm sure driving around Finnish backroads teaches you a little something about car control. After my first two autocrosses I had a very close call with an old lady that ran a red light; I'm positive that if it wasn't for that small bit of at-the-limit experience, I would have crashed.

I think the point of this thread is that an experienced driver will be just fine with any car, which an unexperienced one is likely to crash whatever he is driving, be it a Miata or a Suburban.

[Spectre]

Originally Posted by Steve Levin

A hint should be that it only took a 40/60 balance to create a car recognized as a massive handful.

I was actually incorrect, the original 911 was 38/62. The 996 is 40/60 but it isn't a handful because Porsche actually fixed the wretched original suspensions of the early 911 after the 930 debacle.

A lot less to do with weight distribution there and a lot more to do with "not designing the car properly" to the point where it killed Porsche's factory test drivers on a regular basis.

Your hint is not based in fact.

3 percent is a lot.

Not per the above.

And trust me, if you are on the limit and lift -- putting weight on the nose once you've started a rotation -- you WILL spin. I see it all the time when I instruct and people that say "I know what I'm doing" actually get out on a track and really put the cars on edge -- something that should NEVER be done intentionally on a public road.

Steve

Much of your assertion depends on the design of the car more than which end is providing motive power. Skip Barber, for example, disagrees with you. You *can* spin, sure, but it's not a sure thing. And by your own assertions, a Fail Wheel Drive car will be worse as weight transfers off the rear wheels faster than on a RWD one of similar design.

Edit: Since you seem so all-fired fixated on qualifications, here's mine: Amateur motorcycle and car racer, car builder, multiple-time Skip Barber and Panoz high performance and racing school graduate. Among other things.

[sifu]

Well ill play then it also..

1992 Finnish regional tournament (IS-turnaus) under 8-year-old series best forward award and best player of the season award in a team playing 5th highest level of Finland. (Ice Hockey)

Wait a second... it wasnt about the merits, its about driving and probably we wont never know who is better at it until we are given the same car, same track and same conditions and have a RACE!

[adaptech]

Originally Posted by Posmo

EDIT: And oh yeah, my Sierras weight distribution is 50.9-49.1, I'd call that .9 percent insignificant.

Where do you get those numbers from?
I highly doubt that its correct

[Posmo]

Originally Posted by adaptech

Where do you get those numbers from?
I highly doubt that its correct

Passionford, not absolutely certain about them, but another googling claimed that the 2.9i weight distribution was 53-47, so it can't be TOO far off..

[adaptech]

Originally Posted by Posmo

Passionford, not absolutely certain about them, but another googling claimed that the 2.9i weight distribution was 53-47, so it can't be TOO far off..

The 50.9-49.1 cant be a stock Sierra. 53-47 sounds more likely.

[villej]

Few weeks ago I was doing a long 6 hour trip to home. When I had driven for about 2 hours it started snowing, and temperature dropped below zero. The snow packed to the road surface. I had not expected such a bad weather, and had summer performance tires under my car. I tested how much grip I had by pressing brake pedal - No effect, the tires locked immediately, it would have probably taken few hundred meters to stop the car from my 60 km/h travel speed, which was 20 under the limit. I decided it would be best to slow to 50. Tried to press the gas pedal - The motor just revved up, and wheels lost traction immediately if you weren't very careful with the thortle. For the rest 5 hours I had to drive in conditions like that. It was very exhausting. And I was glad I had a FWD car. With a RWD car without TCS I would have had to be even more precise with the thortle, as the car would have spun very easily if the back wheels would have lost traction.

It is fun to drive RWD car on slippery conditions, but it is not fun to drive a RWD car without TCS for 5 hours straight in extremely slippery conditions.

[LeVeL]

Traction control wouldn't have helped you much; better tires would.

[villej]

Yeah, winter tires would have certainly helped, but it was not possible to change them at the middle of the trip.

[Spectre]

Originally Posted by villej

It is fun to drive RWD car on slippery conditions, but it is not fun to drive a RWD car without TCS for 5 hours straight in extremely slippery conditions.

One of the fun things about preferring "heavy metal" cars like I do is that I have the same or better traction at all times as compared to a FWD car - same kind of weight over the drive axles.

[prizrak]

Originally Posted by Posmo

I still have no fucking idea what you are talking about.

On normal roads at normal speeds & with good tires you are NEVER going to get into a sudden, unprovoked oversteer slide in any sort of car. Fwd only gives you an advantage from a standing start in snowy conditions, and as soon as you have gathered momentum, your cars weight will tip on the rear wheels, which will cause a fwd to have less traction. You are never going to get stuck on a wet road, so fwd is pointless acceleration-wise there.

Also, in my opinion when you get a sudden slide countersteering is the most common instinctive reaction. Besides, if you don't know how to act when your car starts over- or understeering, you shouldn't be allowed on the road. Also, lifting off mid slide will NOT make your rwd car spin.

Basically your whole post was incorrect, and these aren't even opinions, these are facts.

You are wrong, I did forget to specify that it would be under low traction conditions.

I'm sorry you are absolutely ignoring physics and weight distribution of most regular cars. Just because a car is RWD doesn't mean that you have a 50/50, even sportier cars sufffer from bad weight distribution. One of my favorite RWD cars of all times the z32 300zx turbo is a 60/40 weight distribution and one of the biggest complaints in EVERY review I ever read was that when the road is wet it becomes extremely tail happy.

I also have a co worker who used to own a 944 and a Camaro at some point in time. He loved the 944 but said Camaro was trying to spin out on him all the time.

RWD, AWD, FWD it all depends on how the car is set up but FWD is much easier to control regardless of how badly the car is setup. This is comming from someone who used to drive a 98 Century, which was a horrible horrible car to drive but thanks to being FWD it was pretty easy to control.

Much of your assertion depends on the design of the car more than which end is providing motive power

Spectre,

That seems to be the general mood of those of us who see a point to FWD. My AWD understeers pretty badly at the limit and so do most Subaru's but Evo's are extremely neutral. On the other hand one of my other favorite RWD cars the SW20 MR2 had a pretty serious snap oversteer problem.

[MadCat360]

Originally Posted by Spectre

Much of your assertion depends on the design of the car more than which end is providing motive power. Skip Barber, for example, disagrees with you. You *can* spin, sure, but it's not a sure thing. And by your own assertions, a Fail Wheel Drive car will be worse as weight transfers off the rear wheels faster than on a RWD one of similar design.

Edit: Since you seem so all-fired fixated on qualifications, here's mine: Amateur motorcycle and car racer, car builder, multiple-time Skip Barber and Panoz high performance and racing school graduate. Among other things.

I've done a couple car control sessions at Skip Barber and I'll back you up - lifting the throttle will help regain control in a slide. They say, "when in doubt, throttle out", and they're very anal about your right foot.

And it's not just Skip Barber, the California DMV has it on their theory test. They say, in a slide, "ease off the gas and steer in the direction you want to go", which is long winded for countersteer.

[thedguy]

Originally Posted by MadCat360

I've done a couple car control sessions at Skip Barber and I'll back you up - lifting the throttle will help regain control in a slide. They say, "when in doubt, throttle out", and they're very anal about your right foot.

And it's not just Skip Barber, the California DMV has it on their theory test. They say, in a slide, "ease off the gas and steer in the direction you want to go", which is long winded for countersteer.

Easing out and dropping throttle have 2 different effects. A lot of American RWD cars (c4 and older corvettes are very problematic car) WILL snap on just about the slightest chassis upsetting anywhere near a corner.

A lot of e30 and older BMW's will snap if you drop throttle, FC's also do it... Actually both cars don't even really care for a reduction of throttle. Both used a rather popular 80's suspension design... semi-trailing arm. Also found on Maser's of the era and Front engined Porsches'.

The miata on the other hand, especially with my suspension, is EXTREMELY forgiving to bad driving to the point that I had the alignment setup to error on the side of slight oversteer.

[NooDle]

Originally Posted by Posmo

No need to use the smilies, because I don't care about other countries regulations when choosing MY car. Studded tires are legal here, and that's what matters to me. Besides, you can get proper winter tyres that don't have studs aswell, don't always go for the cheapest brand..

Well, if you can use studded tyres, good on ya. Just stop saying stupid things like "studded tyres are the ONLY way to drive around in winter, and people who don't use them deserve to be killed in a crash"

or something

FYI I am using "regular" winter tyres, brand new ones in fact, Continental. Good enough for ya?

Also, people who live in countries that only get a few days of snow a year should all buy rwd then, fwd is hardly worth it for those few days (which isn't true, because rwd is better on snow& ice anyway. )

again... so you're saying that not only is RWD better on snow & ice (to which I disagree, muchly), but RWD is better on any road, always? Wut?

Disregarding that, I think you have no idea how the world works outside of Finland. People sit in traffic jams here all day, there's very few B roads worth driving on, and the average driving speed is about 30 kph... what possible use could one have for RWD here?

(And to be fair, I'm disregarding the fact that they hardly sell any RWD cars here, most are expensive, use more fuel, etc...)

EDIT: Also thanks for the neg rep, whoever you were:

Wasn't me, I hardly ever -rep anyone and when I do, it's always signed.
Thinking about it now though

[Posmo]

I've never said that you can't drive without studded tires, and yes, I think rwd>fwd on just about any normal occasion. The only things fwd are better at are stunt driving (as in handbrake turns and quick manouvering, which I don't really do anyways.) and the occasional taking off in deep snow. For anything else, rwd is better. And if you want a car for snowy conditions, go for 4wd..

I don't have any idea how the traffic works over there, but I don't think rwd has a disadvantage to fwd when you are sitting in a traffic jam? Sitting in a traffic jam sucks, whatever the car you're in (unless maybe if it's Maybach.) I think buying rwd/4wd is worth it for just that special occasion when you can use it to the fullest. And when you really want to enjoy winter driving, fwd will NEVER do.

[sifu]

for you... and how much have you driven fwd cars?