How "road safety" makes us less safe

[prizrak]

I'm with you on the fact that bus stops should never be put so close to a stop sign, that is a definite hazard. The center buffer would probably be the best place to put a stop sign (least intrusive and obstructed place, and closer to the driver's main focus and viewpoint). I'm sorry to hear about your accident, that must not have been a good day .

It was a while ago and it was actually a bus depot with bus drivers having a bad habbit of leaving their busses wherever they please. Luckily I was going pretty slowly and was in a Buick while the other person was in a Nissan (Buick won )

I was arguing that the writer comes off as saying that all people do while driving is look at signs and not at the road, which I don't think is true. Signs are just something to glance at like the rear view mirror, not to sit there reading it for ages on end and not focus on the road/the car ahead.

In some cases they can be intrusive in others not, there are alot of places where they put them that are absolutely useless though. I think the issue that the writer is attempting to highlight is that rather than increase the quality of driver education the government is simply introducing new signs and rules. That road he mentioned with a sign to slow down where people would go off in the wet is a good example. I mean the reason people do go off in the wet is because they don't realize that you need to go slower in the wet, which is a driver education issue. On the other side of the fence we have people who go 10mph if the road is slightly damp.

The author says "The four-way stop deserves special recognition as a masterpiece of counterproductive public-safety efforts. Where should the driver look? What must he remember?".

A lot of people here treat all way stop signs as regular stop signs, they will stop then come halfway out, then go again. Frigging annoying as hell, but I suppose safe.

[ESPNSTI]

This guy must live in a different US or something.
If I compare the amount of signage and road markings in the US to that of the Netherlands, I'd say the US is using less signs by far.

I prefer having stop signs on all the side streets as opposed to not having them and having to give right-away to traffic from the right as it is in Holland.
I always hated being on a main road in town in Holland and having to almost exclusively put your focus on the 10 or 20 rinky-dink side roads on the right because god forbid some poor schmuck might be coming from there.
The end result is that your main road is going slow, your only paying attention to stuff that's happening on your right side and you encounter assholes on these side streets that just take the right of way on these rinky-dink side streets, don't even bother looking and just jump on the main road.

No thank you, I prefer the US method, your main road is flowing nicely and doesn't have to stop, all your small side roads have stop signs on them.
You have to worry a bit less about someone from the right going kamikaze on your ass, so you are more free to check for pedestrians, traffic from the left, etc...


As for the four stop sign intersection, it's not rocket science, it's first come first serve. If two or more arrive at the same time, fastest car or biggest vehicle wins. (OK it's defers to traffic from the right technically.)
The purpose of this is to handle two intersecting roads that are of equal importance (the roads are about equal in the amount of traffic they generally have).
Personally I think this works just fine, it's an alternative to a roundabout, although I think a roundabout probably works a bit better if there is enough land available, and you don't have icy road conditions.


In my opinion, the biggest safety hazard on roads today probably is not paying attention enough.
A lot of people I see on the road, give me the impression that they're in a zombie-like state.
To me, paying attention to other traffic on the road takes priority over that of traffic signs.
Even if you have a green light, you might encounter an ambulance or something like that.

[katwalk]

4 way stops are not nearly as bad as for example 3 way stops, where you stop for the 3 seconds, start to go, but then find out that one of the other people doesn't have a stop, so you almost get hit because if the person in front of you and left of you have stop signs the person on the right usually does. Then there's when they have unnecessary lights every 10 feet. Then this weekend I encountered an extremely annoying street pattern, where there were three roads that intersected the one I was one, each spaced about 20 feet apart. All three were identical in every way except on had a 4 way stop, one had nothing and one had a stop light. I ended up running the damn light because I didn't expect it. Then when I was trying to get onto the highway, they had hidden the sign that laybled the highway exit behind more signs so I had to turn around because I missed it.

[KaJuN]

All this talk of too many roadsigns reminded me of some more complaints I have. Signs showing the name of the street are often hard to find or completely nonexistent. There are times I have been lost and I had to drive around for twenty minutes just to find out what road I was on so I could look it up on a map. The other complaint is about useless signs. My favorites are the interstate ramp signs that say something like "Ramp 34B to I-75N". Those signs are posted halfway down the ramp so they're not even directional signs. What's the point of that? They should have used the money they spent on the sign to make the road not suck as much as it does.

But probably the biggest complaint I have is with traffic lights, particularly the yellow ones. You have no idea how long they will hold. Some are lit for quite a while, others just give you a flash of yellow before going to red. I hate having to come to a screeching halt because there might be a camera or a police car around. The problem is compounded while on my motorcycle because I don't like making sudden stops near intersections where cars sit leaking oil and water from their air conditioners.

Originally Posted by LurkerPatrol

I don't think signs are a hazard (contrary to this writer's thoughts), they're irreplaceable in my opinion. I can't think of an alternative to alert people of something oncoming (aka stop sign, falling rocks random accidents ahead life's a lottery be lucky, midget festival etc etc).

I'll shut up now

I couldn't resist.

[Blind_Io]

Originally Posted by Eye-Q

So, what's your opinion? You quoted the opinion of a professor of psychology, maybe it's a well written article but it doesn't necessarily has to be your own opinion.

I know I have the tendency to be somewhat overbearing when it comes to expressing my opinion. I wanted to give everyone else a chance to read the article without having my bias attached to it.

[prizrak]

The end result is that your main road is going slow, your only paying attention to stuff that's happening on your right side and you encounter assholes on these side streets that just take the right of way on these rinky-dink side streets, don't even bother looking and just jump on the main road.

Stop signs don't seem to stop anyone from doing it here...

[Spice_Rack]

Originally Posted by KaJuN

But probably the biggest complaint I have is with traffic lights, particularly the yellow ones. You have no idea how long they will hold. Some are lit for quite a while, others just give you a flash of yellow before going to red.

WTF... you have traffic lights that have different duration yellow lights? They are all exactly the same here and quite predictable. We don't have many red-light-runners here, only at a few intersections where the green light is too short for the amount of traffic. All intersections have thresholds set for certain times of the day, and some of them are too short or too long which can promote accidents because people don't want to wait.

In general though I don't really see a problem with the amount of traffic signs here. There are some intersections that may not need as many, but for the most part they are reasonable. I think the main problem is lack of concentration and politeness. People just don't pay attention to what they are doing or other drivers, and don't care if they inconvenience others.

As for speed limits, I don't really pay attention to them, I just drive what i feel is comfortable. On streets with lots of nooks and crannies on the sides where animals or children could run out in to the street on I tend to go a bit slower, but that is never really lower than the posted speed limit.

I drive with a lot of situational awareness, I keep an eye on what cars are doing around me, cars I see approaching the next intersection, etc. I've never had an accident before in the 6 years i've been driving because I pay attention.

One of the things though that annoys me about what some drivers do, is for instance if its a 4 lane, 2-way road and i'm coming up to an intersection I want to turn right on at a red light, and there is one car that is sitting in the right lane wanting to go straight, when they could of easily moved over to the left lane before stopping at the light so people can turn right. Instead I have to wait for the light to go green and the car in front of me to go. I try observe the same courtesy for other drivers behind me when i'm coming up to a red light.

[Hercules286]

Originally Posted by Vector

I only tailgate if the idiot is doing less than the speed limit. You have no business being on the road if you can't drive the proper speed imo. Take the bus.

Tailgating is ONLY acceptable if you expect to overtake the person in front of you real soon. Even then, prepare to left foot brake.

Don't tailgate needlessly, please.

[scathing]

I would agree with the principle. One of my favourite quotes from the Dune series of novels, which I'm sure I've mangled, is "Never give orders. Give an order once, and people will expect you to always give them."

The more you tell people what to do, the more they'll want spoonfeeding. They stop thinking for themselves, and expect someone "more knowledgeable" to tell them what to do. They will not show initiative, and either get things wrong or sit there and do nothing at all.

That's no mindset for an adult in any walk of life, let alone one operating what amounts to heavy machinery in a populated place.

[scathing]

Originally Posted by Spice_Rack

WTF... you have traffic lights that have different duration yellow lights?

In Australia, the duration of the yellow light period is variable and dependent on the speed limit. The higher the speed limit, the longer the duration.

Its simple and logical. You're travelling faster, so you need more distance to react and slow down.

[scathing]

Anyway, the whole over-signed thing reminds me of this:

[KaJuN]

Originally Posted by petarkb

Tailgating is ONLY acceptable if you expect to overtake the person in front of you real soon. Even then, prepare to left foot brake.

Don't tailgate needlessly, please.

I say don't tailgate at all. I hate it when I'm on an empty interstate and someone gets right on my bumper before passing when it was obvious they were going to have to get around me at some point. I'm all for not hogging the left lane but I'd rather you do that than come within inches of my bumper before moving over.

Originally Posted by scathing

In Australia, the duration of the yellow light period is variable and dependent on the speed limit. The higher the speed limit, the longer the duration.

Its simple and logical. You're travelling faster, so you need more distance to react and slow down.

It seems like the yellow lights are completely random here. There's a yellow in town that holds way longer for a 35mph speed limit than a light further up the road where it's 50mph.

[katwalk]

Originally Posted by Spice_Rack

WTF... you have traffic lights that have different duration yellow lights? They are all exactly the same here and quite predictable.

here the duration varies even on one set of lights ]
Talk about confusing

[bafranksbro]

Originally Posted by katwalk

Then when I was trying to get onto the highway, they had hidden the sign that laybled the highway exit behind more signs so I had to turn around because I missed it.

Any where near Manchester? Because my Mom and I missed the turn to the street the VW Meet was on becuase they hid the damn street sign almost inside the tree.

[BlaRo]

Speaking of signage...here's something unrelated but still similar. As a delivery driver, I hate having to slow down and visually scan each house's doorframes for a microscopic, faded, painted-over, ugly little house number. It's dangerous at night to be constantly slowing down and wearing my eyes out because the owners all have their own individual tastes and styles and hang 'em on the door, on the porch posts, on the mailboxes, atop the roof, underneath the garage, or in their freaking septic tanks. To make matters worse, sometimes house numbering isn't consistent: 246, 348, 302, 318, 1064, 28,067,351, π? WTF?

Some places that actually have a decent public works department paint house numbers on the curb, I believe. Houses can be painted, torn down and rebuilt, but their numbers never change.

Just a thought.

[KaJuN]

You're not the only one who hates that. When I can't find numbers it makes me want to simultaneously cry like a little girl and beat the everliving snot out of my steering wheel from the frustration.

[prizrak]

In Australia, the duration of the yellow light period is variable and dependent on the speed limit. The higher the speed limit, the longer the duration.

Its simple and logical. You're travelling faster, so you need more distance to react and slow down.

It's a double edged sword though, I have seen many (guilty of that myself) trying to run a long yellow figuring since it's long you can make it. Even got a ticket to prove that no you can't always

It seems like the yellow lights are completely random here. There's a yellow in town that holds way longer for a 35mph speed limit than a light further up the road where it's 50mph.

Similar here, the city being as old as it is alot of traffic lights are ancient and use mechanical relays rather than electronics, makes for some interesting results. For instance the other day when it was over 100 (37) with the heat index one of the lights on one of the busiest intersections in Brooklyn got fried and would stick on each light for 10-20 minutes. Funnily enough that made for a much more courteous driving from the public

Speaking of signage...here's something unrelated but still similar. As a delivery driver, I hate having to slow down and visually scan each house's doorframes for a microscopic, faded, painted-over, ugly little house number. It's dangerous at night to be constantly slowing down and wearing my eyes out because the owners all have their own individual tastes and styles and hang 'em on the door, on the porch posts, on the mailboxes, atop the roof, underneath the garage, or in their freaking septic tanks. To make matters worse, sometimes house numbering isn't consistent: 246, 348, 302, 318, 1064, 28,067,351, π? WTF?

Some places that actually have a decent public works department paint house numbers on the curb, I believe. Houses can be painted, torn down and rebuilt, but their numbers never change.

Just a thought.

+1000000 Seriously, even with a GPS it's a pain in the ass to find the right house, I was dropping a (very drunk) friend off at some point and looking for her house was a nightmare. She was at 214, going on the left site we went from 200 to 250 and couldn't find it it. Turns out there was a fork in the road to other houses which is where 214 was..... 1am middle of frigging Queens with tiny ass sings and a road while a 2 way barely wide enough for two MX-5's.

[Alex K]

Originally Posted by KaJuN

The first is the first thing he mentioned: slower speed limits for curves. There seems to be no consistency in the method. Some curves have a suggested speed of 35 when you could easily take it at 55. Yet some have the same suggested speed but you'd be insane to take it that fast.

I always kind of figured that, and I'm speaking strictly of US roads and highways, that it was planned out to accommodate the lowest common denominator. Like if a highway engineer lays out a bend that's capable of an 80mph speed, they mark it as 40 as to give a sort of wide margin of error for the various vehicles/drivers that will be taking it.

Another way of putting it is as if they said "alright, let's make a highway that gets the lousiest driver in the worst crate imaginable around quickly and safely."

it'd be interesting if they labeled highways out like ski paths.

route 33 is a black diamond, intermediate drivers use caution

[katwalk]

Originally Posted by bafranksbro

Any where near Manchester? Because my Mom and I missed the turn to the street the VW Meet was on becuase they hid the damn street sign almost inside the tree.

yup lol

[sonza68]

Originally Posted by Alex K

I always kind of figured that, and I'm speaking strictly of US roads and highways, that it was planned out to accommodate the lowest common denominator. Like if a highway engineer lays out a bend that's capable of an 80mph speed, they mark it as 40 as to give a sort of wide margin of error for the various vehicles/drivers that will be taking it.

Another way of putting it is as if they said "alright, let's make a highway that gets the lousiest driver in the worst crate imaginable around quickly and safely."

it'd be interesting if they labeled highways out like ski paths.

route 33 is a black diamond, intermediate drivers use caution

I'd heard it was based on the safe speed for a semi on that turn. Not sure if it is true, but it seems reasonable.