How "road safety" makes us less safe

[Alex K]

^ makes sense to me.

I agree that people often get caught up in signage way more than judging conditions for yourself. I can name several winters where someone is complaining that the car in front is going too slow. They lament out loud "c'mon, its 30mph here!" and I just look at them and think "but its snowing."

Since we're on the subject of tailgating, one of the things that enrages me here in NY is that I can never maintain a safe driving distance with the car ahead of me because someone will immediately pull into the space and stay there. I get incensed that they see it as an "opening" so now not only are they tailgating the car I was originally behind, but now I'm forced to slow down or ride their bumper. seriously, now matter how tight I close the gap (even beyond my better judgment) someone will just pop in and stay there. It makes me want to scream.

is this an NY thing? or do you have strangle-worthy idiots by the rest of you?

[the Interceptor]

Originally Posted by Alex K

is this an NY thing? or do you have strangle-worthy idiots by the rest of you?

Oh, I'm certain that is a worldwide problem. A German comedian once said:

"We're surrounded by dipshits, no matter where we are and what we do."

[KaJuN]

That's not a New York thing at all. Just last week someone pulled something that utterly boggled my mind. I was in the left of two lanes with the right lane being turn only. As we all pulled away from the light as it went green I took it easy as I always do through intersections like that. Then this little Cavalier blasted up the right lane and cut right in front of me into a space that was just barely big enough for their car. They probably still have the tone of a Land Rover Discovery's horn ringing in their ears.

[Spectre]

Originally Posted by Alex K

Since we're on the subject of tailgating, one of the things that enrages me here in NY is that I can never maintain a safe driving distance with the car ahead of me because someone will immediately pull into the space and stay there. I get incensed that they see it as an "opening" so now not only are they tailgating the car I was originally behind, but now I'm forced to slow down or ride their bumper. seriously, now matter how tight I close the gap (even beyond my better judgment) someone will just pop in and stay there. It makes me want to scream.

is this an NY thing? or do you have strangle-worthy idiots by the rest of you?

We have idiots here in Dallas, but they resort to other behavior. Tailgating is considered rude and unsafe here. If you rear end someone in Texas, you are *automatically* considered at fault and have to foot the entire bill for the incident. We usually don't have tailgaters here.

The DallasDriver's® favorite and most annoying tactic is left-lane banditry and not paying attention at all.

Los Angeles is pretty much the way you describe NY, except that everyone does it and we did it at 90mph. I grew up and learned to drive there, so I don't think anything of clearances that resemble the middle of the pack in a Nascrash race. However, I don't tailgate unless that's how everyone else is driving (protective camouflage to keep from getting marked as an out of stater and ticket magnet).

[the Interceptor]

Sometimes I'm amazed at hoch much people change when they enter a car. You can have a nice chat with pretty much every person on this planet operating some machine, but as soon as that machine is a car, everything suddenly changes. Seemingly all over the world, people either stop paying attention to what happens around them, or they feel provoked by every kind of contact they have with other motorists.

There are times when I think people switch off their brain when they drive a car. Common sense suddenly seems to be absent as a whole, and people behave like they just climbed off a tree. As fascinating as cars can be, they also seem to do things to us no other device on earth can archieve ... apart from a proper blow on the head with a sledgehammer maybe.

[scathing]

Originally Posted by Alex K

Like if a highway engineer lays out a bend that's capable of an 80mph speed, they mark it as 40 as to give a sort of wide margin of error for the various vehicles/drivers that will be taking it[/I]

My policy is that, if the bend speed warning sign is over 10mph, in a half-decent sports car you can do double whatever's written on it.

I haven't had the stones to do a 60mph posted bend at 120 yet, but if we're talking about stuff posted from 20mph to 45mph then that rule of thumb works pretty well.

[scathing]

Originally Posted by Alex K

I can never maintain a safe driving distance with the car ahead of me because someone will immediately pull into the space and stay there

Its a global phenomenon. "If there's a gap, it must be filled".

Down in Australia, I find that a bit more prevalent in Melbourne than in Sydney. In Sydney someone will only cut in front of you if your lane is moving faster, since everyone's late.

In Melbourne, I've had two lanes doing almost same speed in peak hour traffic but, because I was slow off the mark, someone decided they'd pull into it. About a minute later, they pulled back into their lane after a half a dozen cars passed us.

[KaJuN]

Originally Posted by the Interceptor

Sometimes I'm amazed at hoch much people change when they enter a car. You can have a nice chat with pretty much every person on this planet operating some machine, but as soon as that machine is a car, everything suddenly changes. Seemingly all over the world, people either stop paying attention to what happens around them, or they feel provoked by pretty much every kind of contact they have with other motorists.

There are times when I think people switch off their brain when they drive a car. Common sense suddenly seems to be absent as a whole, and people behave like they just climbed off a tree. As fascinating as cars can be, they also seem to do things to us no other device can archieve ... apart from a proper blow on the head with a sledgehammer maybe.

KaJuN's Laws of Motoring:
1. I.Q. is inversely proportional to speed.
2. The act of getting into the operator's position of any vehicle results in an automatic 30 point I.Q. level deduction.
3. If a driver believes they can do it, they will try.
4. Windshields always create a condition of nearsightedness and side windows eliminate all peripheral vision.
5. Objects in mirror simply aren't there.
6. One's ability to multi-task is forfeited upon entering a motorized vehicle.
7. Motor vehicles will, in all circumstances, hinder an individual's judgmental abilities.

[Ottobon]

I agree with the author on actively using your own judgement, but i don't think roadsigns are bad, its the issue of unreasonable enforcement which turns the roads into a breeding ground of incompetent sheep.

Originally Posted by KaJuN

KaJuN's Laws of Motoring:
1. I.Q. is inversely proportional to speed.

Since when were you anti-speed? . This is a car forum and if you don't like speed then GTFO. Understand i like and respect you alot, but i can't agree with such a comment, even in the slightest.

Plus, Billy Gibbons admits to driving at or over 200mph on public roads, and he wrote "Sharp Dressed Man," so don't tell me what you know about intelligence, not until you produce something as good as "under pressure" out on your own studio.

Originally Posted by LurkerPatrol

Is it that hard to obey the speed limit? Is it really that hard to maintain a constant speed (ish) with your foot?

Its only about as hard as having a beautiful woman throwing herself at you and not being allowed to touch her because some laws made up by idiots who can't handle the complexities of modern living "say so". I would also go so far as to say it does hurt many people as i can never get the time back that i waste driving around at annoyingly low speeds, as well, slower speeds always lead to more congestion, congestion leads to tail-gating, tail-gating leads to dead babies and motherless children.



Personally i believe anybody who thinks that strict enforcement of speed limits is a good idea either has deep-rooted self esteem issues or is a hermit who can't think for themselves. I think both the Southern region of Italy and Japan go to show that speed doesn't kill, as in both of those incredibly safe regions people tend to drive more the less at whatever speed seems safe.

With that said i seldom broke the speed limit for at least the first 3 years of my driving life, simply because i take it upon myself to only go as fast as i know i can handle, and at the time i knew nothing about car control. I waited till i had about 2 years worth of motorsport under my belt, and even then i am extremely careful. Doesn't keep me from believing that speed limits are the biggest infringements on human rights modern society faces today.


Should i be writing my congressman?

[the Interceptor]

Interesting to see how some, just alike thinking that the Internet is an unlegislated area, the open road is the same. Just because you can drive the speed you like and nothing bad happens at the very moment doesn't mean it's okay. With having a roadworthy car and a driving license, you accepted to stick to the road traffic regulations. You can surely bend them to an extent as we all do, but you can't ignore them at will just because you think there's no point in some of them.

[prizrak]

Originally Posted by the Interceptor

Interesting to see how some, just alike thinking that the Internet is an unlegislated area, the open road is the same. Just because you can drive the speed you like and nothing bad happens at the very moment doesn't mean it's okay. With having a roadworthy car and a driving license, you accepted to stick to the road traffic regulations. You can surely bend them to an extent as we all do, but you can't ignore them at will just because you think there's no point in some of them.

The problem is that in alot of places speed limits are unnecessarily low or are unnecessarily enforced. As a case in point one of the highways that I tend to take quite a bit here has a speed limit of 50MPH (80Km/h). 99.9% of the road is smooth there are very few bends and the ones that are there are very long and mild. It is absolutely safe to go 80MPH (130Km/h) for a vast majority of cars. There are couple of sharpish turns on there and a bumpy area but those are already restricted to 40 instead of 50.

However the limit is set at 50 and 50 only because the road gets a good amount of cars during the day. During dead parts of the day or later at night when traffic is mild you will still get stopped for speeding (generally over 60) because the limit is so ridiculously low.

The main problem with speed limits in the US is that they were set in two "waves" one was during the WW2 where fuel had to be conserved for the war effort. The other wave was during the oil crisis of the 70's again to conserve fuel. At the time 50-55 was the most efficient speed for the vehicles on the road. Using my car as an example it is most efficient at 65 (if I trust my on board MPG counter) and I suspect most other cars as well since the engine design is similar. The speed limits also don't take into account the fact that the cars are much safer and handle/stop much better these days than they did in the 70's.

Basically my point is that the speed limits are just not up to the times, we can have faster limits but the government doesn't want to change them because it's basically free money. As always the government is taking a half assed approach that will create revenue for them. There is no money being spent for better driver training.

Also I would argue that a strictly enforced low speed limit is creating an unsafe condition as most people aren't good enough to be able to tell how fast they are going without looking at the speedo. That means that instead of paying attention to the road you have to pay attention to the needle and any time a driver's attention is diverted from the situation on the road it makes him/her much less safe.

***Fun fact: While the limits are strictly up to the states, the federal gov't put pressure on all the states to institute some kind of a speed limit. In response to that pressure Montana set a limit of 95MPH on it's highways

[the Interceptor]

Before I go into detail, I'd like to stress one thing. Call me small-minded, self esteem-less, stuck up or whatever, but I don't question speed limits. I just don't see the point. If there's a speed limit, and it looks like I could do more than said speed safely, I add the amount of extra speed I find okay, and do that speed. I've always arrived that way, never had a crash, never got a ticket. Still, if I feel the need for some thrill, I can as well rev the shit out of my BMW inline-six and still stop accelerating at the desired speed.

The only thing I'd archieve with questioning speed limits is having more work to do while driving, being mad at the government and getting more tickets. For what? For saving 5 minutes on a 100 km trip? Come on!

Originally Posted by prizrak

The problem is that in alot of places speed limits are unnecessarily low or are unnecessarily enforced. As a case in point one of the highways that I tend to take quite a bit here has a speed limit of 50MPH (80Km/h). 99.9% of the road is smooth there are very few bends and the ones that are there are very long and mild. It is absolutely safe to go 80MPH (130Km/h) for a vast majority of cars. There are couple of sharpish turns on there and a bumpy area but those are already restricted to 40 instead of 50.

However the limit is set at 50 and 50 only because the road gets a good amount of cars during the day. During dead parts of the day or later at night when traffic is mild you will still get stopped for speeding (generally over 60) because the limit is so ridiculously low.

See above, I don't have that problem. Still, I agree with you that in our highly technical world, speed limits should be variable depending on traffic and other things. That's just a question of time I suppose, we already have that for some Autobahns. I don't know if we'll ever see that on the street, but it would be a way to go.

Another thing I'd like to add is that you don't have as much traffic at night, but you will see obstacles on and at the side of the road later (probably too late?), so raising the limit for the nighttime might not be the best idea.

Originally Posted by prizrak

The main problem with speed limits in the US is that they were set in two "waves" one was during the WW2 where fuel had to be conserved for the war effort. The other wave was during the oil crisis of the 70's again to conserve fuel. At the time 50-55 was the most efficient speed for the vehicles on the road. Using my car as an example it is most efficient at 65 (if I trust my on board MPG counter) and I suspect most other cars as well since the engine design is similar. The speed limits also don't take into account the fact that the cars are much safer and handle/stop much better these days than they did in the 70's.

They do, but then again, there are much more cars on the road today than there were in the 70's.

Originally Posted by prizrak

Basically my point is that the speed limits are just not up to the times, we can have faster limits but the government doesn't want to change them because it's basically free money. As always the government is taking a half assed approach that will create revenue for them. There is no money being spent for better driver training.

I agree that there are many things wrong on the roads nowadays, but you're welcome to either not attend to road traffic, don't pay attention to speed limits and pay the price in form of money and/or lifes or write to the local authorities and try to change something.

Originally Posted by prizrak

Also I would argue that a strictly enforced low speed limit is creating an unsafe condition as most people aren't good enough to be able to tell how fast they are going without looking at the speedo. That means that instead of paying attention to the road you have to pay attention to the needle and any time a driver's attention is diverted from the situation on the road it makes him/her much less safe.

So you are seriously suggesting that removing all speed limits would lead to more saftety on the streets, because people keep their eyes on the road instead of on signs and the speedo? I do agree with "how road safety makes us less safe", but that takes it a bit too far, don't you think?

[KaJuN]

Originally Posted by Ottobon

Since when were you anti-speed? . This is a car forum and if you don't like speed then GTFO. Understand i like and respect you alot, but i can't agree with such a comment, even in the slightest.

Oh no no no no no! I'm not at all anti-speed. Quite the opposite in fact. Heck, I was just out cruising at 10 over the speed limit on my motorcycle. Law #1 simply states an I.Q. drop seems like a by-product of increased speed, at least from what I've seen people doing on the interstates.

[katwalk]

Originally Posted by KaJuN

KaJuN's Laws of Motoring:
1. I.Q. is inversely proportional to speed.
2. The act of getting into the operator's position of any vehicle results in an automatic 30 point I.Q. level deduction.
3. If a driver believes they can do it, they will try.
4. Windshields always create a condition of nearsightedness and side windows eliminate all peripheral vision.
5. Objects in mirror simply aren't there.
6. One's ability to multi-task is forfeited upon entering a motorized vehicle.
7. Motor vehicles will, in all circumstances, hinder an individual's judgmental abilities.

I think this is missing:
8: If a vehicle is larger than your's, they will assume they have right of way and try to drive over you if possible (seeing you have a bike I assume you know all too well about people doing this :/ )

[prizrak]

So you are seriously suggesting that removing all speed limits would lead to more saftety on the streets, because people keep their eyes on the road instead of on signs and the speedo? I do agree with "how road safety makes us less safe", but that takes it a bit too far, don't you think?

I didn't really suggest that. However, you are from Germany and you have derestricted autobahns so I would really have to ask you how you feel about it?

I would like to specify that when I'm talking about speed limits I'm only talking about highways and not "local" roads. For instance the Isle of Man has no speed limits outside of the villages/towns and it seems to be working just fine.

Here is my general belief on road safety (highways only).
1) Improve driver training!!!!!!!!

2) Raise speed limits in general. There are 70mph roads in Maryland but none in NY, difference in traffic and road conditions is minimal.

3) Introduce speed limits that are changed based on road conditions. During the rush hour traffic you will never get to the speed limit anyway so it matters very little.

4) Stop mandating to the highway patrolmen when they have to take action and how many tickets they must write. If officers can exercise more discretion we will have less tickets for things that are technically illegal but in reality are hardly unsafe.

5) Introduce tougher laws against reckless/aggressive driving. Going fast in a straight line on an empty road is loads less dangerous than weaving in and out of traffic, yet the police only watches for the speeders.

[KaJuN]

Improving driver training, I couldn't agree more! Driver education in this country is a joke. I spent more time maneuvering the car at 2mph through cones in a parking lot than I spent out on real roads. If I ever got into a skid I'd be thoroughly screwed based on the education I received in that course. They teach for the test but just because you passed that test doesn't mean you're a safe driver.

Originally Posted by katwalk

I think this is missing:
8: If a vehicle is larger than your's, they will assume they have right of way and try to drive over you if possible (seeing you have a bike I assume you know all too well about people doing this :/ )

Hmm an interesting idea. Surprisingly the vast majority of drivers give me plenty of space on the road but that may just be a regional thing. Although today I was almost run into by a gold-colored reasonably priced car version one backing out of a driveway and coming halfway into my lane. On the flip side one of my favorite things about driving my Disco is that when I'm on a narrow road with another car coming, they move out of the way.

[katwalk]

Originally Posted by KaJuN

Hmm an interesting idea. Surprisingly the vast majority of drivers give me plenty of space on the road but that may just be a regional thing. Although today I was almost run into by a gold-colored reasonably priced car version one backing out of a driveway and coming halfway into my lane. On the flip side one of my favorite things about driving my Disco is that when I'm on a narrow road with another car coming, they move out of the way.

I have to drive assuming every SUV and large pickup is going to cut in front of me, not stop at stop signs etc. because it's true alot of the time. :/

[the Interceptor]

Originally Posted by prizrak

I didn't really suggest that. However, you are from Germany and you have derestricted autobahns so I would really have to ask you how you feel about it?

I like it, but I wouldn't die if they introduce an overall speed limit. I hardly driver faster than 140 km/h on the Bahn anyway, and trying to travel faster can be a real pain in the ass. You constantly have to accelerate, brake, accelerate, brake, ... no fun! Nevertheless, if there should ever be a popular vote in this country, and it would ask about whether to introduce a speed limit or not, I'd vote they shouldn't introduce one.

Originally Posted by prizrak

I would like to specify that when I'm talking about speed limits I'm only talking about highways and not "local" roads. For instance the Isle of Man has no speed limits outside of the villages/towns and it seems to be working just fine.

Okay, I got you wrong on that one.

Originally Posted by prizrak

Here is my general belief on road safety (highways only).
1) Improve driver training!!!!!!!!

What does driver training specifically mean? I'd be very happy if someone would make people just pay attention to driving already.

[prizrak]

What does driver training specifically mean? I'd be very happy if someone would make people just pay attention to driving already.

1) Mandatory driving school. As it stands now in most states you don't have to go to driving school to take your test.

2) Take students on highways!!!! Basically all you get taught here is how to parallel park, do a 3 point turn, figure out the right of way. Well that's it really, every school I have ever seen doesn't even have a manual car for training.

3) Defensive driving, here it's an OPTIONAL course that you can take to lower your insurance.

4) Skid recovery, not taught period.

5) Accident avoidance/emergency handling, not taught.

6) Adverse conditions driving (at least rain, easy enough to make a skid pad), not taught.

7) A real driving test, my driving test consisted of - parallel parking, 3 point turn, couple of rights, couple of lefts some of the turns were from stop lights, couple from stop signs. That is it...

8) Basic racing theory. I agree that ones a bit out there but in my opinion if you at least know the theory of fast driving you will be a better driver.

[katwalk]

Originally Posted by Alex K

Since we're on the subject of tailgating, one of the things that enrages me here in NY is that I can never maintain a safe driving distance with the car ahead of me because someone will immediately pull into the space and stay there. I get incensed that they see it as an "opening" so now not only are they tailgating the car I was originally behind, but now I'm forced to slow down or ride their bumper. seriously, now matter how tight I close the gap (even beyond my better judgment) someone will just pop in and stay there. It makes me want to scream.

welcome to my daily commute on 128 towards boston.
I've learned the best solution is leave about half a car length and get ready to slam on the brakes.
That being said I still ended up rearing someone once, they had the nerve to take up a scratch from the tip of the screw on my plate with the insurance company too.