Little brake help

[NecroJoe]

So, it's time to do some work on my brakes, and as long as both front wheel rotors and pads need replacing, I'm looking into upgrades.

I'm a little unsure about what can be done. I've replaced brakes before (even drum brakes on my old Oldsmobile...Drum Brakes? Never. Again.).

What would be the best upgrades?
Rotors: Drilled? Sloted? Can the brakes be converted to 4-piston calipers? Meaning...is this assembly stand-alone with upgraded calipers, or do the brake lines need to be re-done to do this upgrade? Would better calipers make more sense, or larger rotors?

Any advice anyone can give me on beyond-stock brakes, I'd love.

I really don't plan on upgrading the rears, just replacing them with OEM parts.

ps., my Car is a 2001 Mercury Cougar, Vs w/sport package, and (I believe) 278mm front, 260mm rears.
4x108 mm or 4x4.25 inch Bolt pattern

[Spectre]

Well, what do you intend to do with the car? Are you just seeking better than stock braking?

[NecroJoe]

Yes. I'd like to be able to take some of the hillier roads around here, not afraid that a stop sign or a deer around a bend sneaks up on me too much.

Not looking to do track days or racing, just have a tighter "bite". I want to me able to brake later than I could even when the car was new.

I'm set on tires and I like my wheels, and I don't see myself firming up my suspension anymore, so besides some free-er breathing for the engine (hopefully get it up to 185 engine hp...I started at 163 {170, new} I'm up to 177), the only other tuning I want to do is the brakes.

[Spectre]

You have any budget in mind?

[NecroJoe]

Originally Posted by Spectre

You have any budget in mind?

Nope. I'm even wanting to go just a tiny bit bling...either black or silver calipers. I can paint those myself, if need be (done it before) but I'd just as soon get 'em that way. I mean, I'm not going carbon ceramic if that's what you had in mind.

[Suedschleife]

First off, the best way to increase actual stopping power is to get stickier tires I'm afraid. Most stock brakes already generate more braking force than traction permits.

Having said that, response, pedal feel, fading resistance and weight can often be vastly improved.

[NecroJoe]

Originally Posted by Suedschleife

First off, the best way to increase actual stopping power is to get stickier tires I'm afraid. Most stock brakes already generate more braking force than traction permits.

Having said that, response, pedal feel, fading resistance and weight can often be vastly improved.

I realize tires play a huge role, but I know that my brakes, even when they were new, don't stretch the limits of radial-adhesion. :-p I think I've only felt the ABS kick in twice...once was when I TRIED to get 'em to step in, because I wasn't sure they were there.

I don't want to go with larger wheels/lower-profile tires, as I've been in my same model with 17's, and it was just that bit too harsh for long drives. My 16's feel like just the right balance for me in my daily driver as far as handling/ride.

Also, as I drive in rural Wisconsin fairly regularly, I can't go too performance-orientated with my tires, as winter traction is a bitch, and too-low-profile tired send to hydroplane.

[Spectre]

Originally Posted by NecroJoe

Nope. I'm even wanting to go just a tiny bit bling...either black or silver calipers. I can paint those myself, if need be (done it before) but I'd just as soon get 'em that way. I mean, I'm not going carbon ceramic if that's what you had in mind.

Sud's comment above is true - you should have as sticky and wide a tire as you can fit to the vehicle. Once you've done that, you can look into upgrades.

Assuming you have already done that, the first thing you should do is install some braided stainless steel brake lines to firm up the pedal and remove any place for hydraulic force to be lost through hose expansion. The only good quality street-legal set I can find for you is Goodridge 12324. Most shops carry it for the Contour, but Goodridge says it fits your Cougar as well.

http://www.stillen.com/product.asp?i...S01&c=BR&m=all
http://www.autoanything.com/brakes/61A3671A0A0.aspx

Summit Racing may also be able to get them, but since its not my car, I'm not going to call and ask.

Next, upgrade your rotors. Crossdrilled rotors can crack and shatter on the street unless they are specially manufactured. EBC makes some dimpled and slotted ones that are great for the street and greatly improve braking over stock.

EBC Front Rotor Set GD555: http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

EBC Rear Rotor Set GD583: http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

These either are black zinc plated or are available as black zinc instead of gold. Check before ordering.

Finally, you should upgrade your pads while you are installing the rotors. EBC makes many pad formulations for different purposes. For the usual street use with good lifespan, most recommend EBC GreenStuff. I favor RedStuff, which is a more aggressive compound, but doesn't last quite as long. Personally, I'm more than happy to swap out street pads once or twice a year if I can get stunning braking performance when I need it.

Greenstuff DP2955 Front: http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

Greenstuff DP2965 Rear: http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

Redstuff DP3955C Front: http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

Redstuff DP3965C Rear: http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

Top all this off with high-temp synth brake fluid and your Stage I brake upgrade is pretty much complete.

These are all brands and makes of products that I have personal experience with (though not on the Cougar) and I have been impressed with. I either am using, will use, or am planning to use the Jaguar versions of these on my Series III.

Originally Posted by NecroJoe

Also, as I drive in rural Wisconsin fairly regularly, I can't go too performance-orientated with my tires, as winter traction is a bitch, and too-low-profile tired send to hydroplane.

Hydroplaning is NOT a function of profile but of tread pattern.

[Suedschleife]

Personally I found the cheaper modifications to be very effective, braided steel lines and harder pads gave a much crisper pedal feel and faster response (although the last one might only be in my head), high temperature brake fluid and brake air ducts (flexible aluminum oven pipe ) did wonders for fading resistance.

While I had several different kind of rotors on my cars over the years, I only once did a full upgrade with calipers due to a persistent warping problem. Outside of solving the temperature issue, it only introduced more problems though. From correcting brake balance to increased diameter requiring bigger rims it cost me a lot more than just the brake parts. I can only recommend researching this in-depth beforehand or going to a pro right away.

As far as brake rotors are concerned, for street use i can't recommend one over the other. Can't comment on drilled rotors because I always avoided them after hearing the horror stories about stress fractures.

[NecroJoe]

Originally Posted by Spectre

the first thing you should do is install some braided stainless steel brake lines to firm up the pedal and remove any place for hydraulic force to be lost through hose expansion.

Interesting...I wouldn't have thought of that. I would have assumed pressurize brakes lines would mostly be of high enough quality that expansion wouldn't be an issue...good to know.

Originally Posted by Spectre

The only good quality street-legal set I can find for you is Goodridge 12324. Most shops carry it for the Contour, but Goodridge says it fits your Cougar as well.

Yes. Both cars are mechanically identical...also, the European Mondeo of the time.

Funny thing about this car, actually...you may have come across some "Cougar S" listings. This car doesn't exist. They were planning on releasing a Cougar with the Contour SVT's V6. It was so far along in the planning/marketing stages before they pulled the plug that even tirerack.com lists it as a model.

Originally Posted by Spectre

Next, upgrade your rotors. Crossdrilled rotors can crack and shatter on the street unless they are specially manufactured. EBC makes some dimpled and slotted ones that are great for the street and greatly improve braking over stock.

Now, I had heard that about drilled, but I couldn't imagine that the dimpled surface would realistically have much effect...

I'm also assuming that the zinc plating on those rotors comes off in a coupla hundred miles max? :-p

Originally Posted by Spectre

I favor RedStuff, which is a more aggressive compound, but doesn't last quite as long. Personally, I'm more than happy to swap out street pads once or twice a year if I can get stunning braking performance when I need it.

For frame of reference, how much longer to the Green pads last than the Red pads, in your useage? (I know you probably them differently than I do, but at least it gives me an idea)

Originally Posted by Spectre

Hydroplaning is NOT a function of profile but of tread pattern.

Of course, but lower profile tires, by nature, are typically offered in less "all-season" tread than their deeper counterparts, and typically are more prone to hydroplaning because of it. Also, tire width plays a role, but not in the more abstract way that a lower-profile tire might.

[Spectre]

Originally Posted by NecroJoe

Now, I had heard that about drilled, but I couldn't imagine that the dimpled surface would realistically have much effect...

I'm also assuming that the zinc plating on those rotors comes off in a coupla hundred miles max? :-p

The zinc plating isn't for the swept area of the disk, it's for the parts that don't get swept by the pads that even on the best Brembo rotors turns rusty in about three weeks out in the weather. The zinc coating (hopefully) stops that from happening.

The dimpled surface of the EBC rotors (plus the slots) give the hot gases and debris generated by braking some place to expand to and go; when the dimple rotates out from under the pad, the gases escape. It's slower than a drilled rotor at dissipating those substances, but almost as effective under spirited street/light track use and it won't crack and shatter like drilled rotors will.

For frame of reference, how much longer to the Green pads last than the Red pads, in your useage?

About 10-40% less life, and the first stop of the day/session might be a bit long. The RedStuff pads like being a little warm, to have a bit of heat in the pads. The GreenStuff pads don't seem to care as much. YMMV, of course, and I'm using them on considerably heavier vehicles than you will.

[NecroJoe]

When you say "even the best brembo rotors"...are you saying that certain models of Brembo rotors are "better" in some way that the EBC's, or was that to dissuade any notions that people might have about Brembos being superior because that's probably the only brand novices recognize? :-p

[Spectre]

Some models of Brembo rotors *are* better. Different alloys, venting, etc., etc.

Those that are just significantly better than the EBCs also cost a significant portion of the resale value of your car and do not have any usable advantage on the street. (rough guesstimate: $1000/axle)

The ones that are *way* better (carbon or ceramics) cost more than your entire car is worth for a full car set. ($10K per car, IIRC)

Most of the more reasonable priced Brembo rotors are no better than the EBCs.

[TBoneUs]

As for pads I would go with Hawk HPS pads if they make them for your car. I really like mine on the street, good bite and they do not squeal badly. Though I will admit that I swapped them out for HP+ pads, but that is because I am an AutoX masochist and drive an extremely aggressive (read also noisy) pad on the street.

[Spectre]

At least on heavier cars, I have been underwhelmed by the Hawk HPS pads. The Mustang Cobra guys think they're okay, but they prefer the EBC Yellowstuff pads instead.

Just a note - I'm approaching this from the point of view of someone driving a heavy car (XJ6) both on the street and in light to moderate track work that came stock with Brembo rotors, Girling 4-piston calipers and fairly aggressive Ferodo pads as his default or "brake systems must work at least *this* well" meterstick. Take that (and my advice) for whatever you feel it is worth.

[tigger]

Originally Posted by TBoneUs

As for pads I would go with Hawk HPS pads if they make them for your car.

I put Brembo rotors, Hawk HPS pads and stainless hoses on my Celica and loved it. I think my Ford takes twice as far to stop as that car did. I don't have any experience with EBC pads, although running a more aggressive pad for a heavier car makes sense. My Celica only weighed 2,600lbs.

[NecroJoe]

Originally Posted by tigger

My Celica only weighed 2,600lbs.

Damn fat cars...my 3013 lb cougar is only 343lbs lighter than a new, fully loaded Mustang GT with a V8.

[Spectre]

My Series III is a little heavier than that.



The stock brake system was fine, it's just that it had skinny-ass 205 or 215/70VR15's to work with. Just putting on the 255/40ZR17's fixed a lot of problems and got my 60-0 down to ~120 feet, which is more or less par for the course these days.

Please note that my XJ6 is modified and has about another 100 horsepower over what the reviewed car had (there are a few inaccuracies in the review - for example, the engine takes 87 and not 91 octane fuel, the compression ratio is 7.8:1 and not 8.1:1, and the car they reviewed was not the "Federal" model but the California one which made about 150hp). And its weight is down about ~160lbs. It's still not very fast, but it's a far cry from the 13 second 0-60 they're reporting there.

[tigger]

Yeesh, I figured that those cars were heavy, but 4250? Weight aside, 120ft 60-0 is about where my Celica was. I never got to put good tires on it though. Ha and I swear, my Fairmont is probably 250ft 60-0. I've had trucks that stopped with more authority. It needs some work.

[Spectre]

Go steal the brake system and wheels off a wrecked SN95 Mustang Cobra. That will solve the problem. You should probably also put subframe connectors on it - the Mustang ones will work just fine.

There's a guy here in the Dallas area that has a Fairmont like yours. He has apparently found a wrecked Cobra that someone did a SRA conversion on - and swapped EVERYTHING under that car into his. It's evil.


As for my XJ6s, it's still some of the most fun I've ever had with four doors - and it's equally at home just idling through traffic as it is on a long, long cross country trip. Or even, surprisingly, on a track, now that I've updated the wheel and tire package. For something this heavy and this old, I can surprise the hell out of newer car owners. My favorite trick is to go around freeway cloverleafs sideways - which the old beast is perfectly willing to do. IMHO, it really is a driver's car once you clean up a few things that time has shown can be improved.

Oddly enough, my lighter, faster and newer XJR isn't quite the driver's car the Series III was and is. It's still a driver's car, but to a slightly lesser degree - and sometimes that's rather disappointing.

On the other hand, ~455 horsepower can make one forget that disappointment in a hurry. To bring this back on topic - yeah, upgrading the brakes on the XJR wasn't all that necessary, as it was already in the 110' ballpark when I got it.