Michigan Police Chiefs Admit Speeding Tickets Are About Money

[Spectre]

Well, we've known this for a while... now we have proof. From: http://www.ridelust.com/michigan-pol...e-about-money/

Michigan Police Chiefs Admit Speeding Tickets Are About Money

Published on November 17, 2008

In 2002, police in the city of Detroit gave out a total of 126,007 traffic tickets. Last year, the number of tickets grew to over 245,000 - a 94% jump. The increase was even larger in small towns like Plymouth which saw the number of tickets go up from 440 to 2,500 — up 480 percent — over the same amount of time. According to Detroit area police the reason for the increase is dwindling property tax revenue. That lack of property tax revenue has forced local governments in Michigan to use average citizen drivers to fill the coffers. You might call it a new, “random driving tax.”

“When I first started in this job thirty years ago, police work was never about revenue enhancement,” Utica Police Chief Michael Reaves told the Detroit News. “But if you’re a chief now, you have to look at whether your department produces revenues. That’s just the reality nowadays.”

The National Motorists Association pointed to Detroit suburbs as home to some of the worst speed traps in the entire country. Upwards of 18 jurisdictions in the area reported an increase in ticketing of more than fifty percent.

“When elected officials say, ‘We need more money,’ they can’t look to the department of public works to raise revenues, so where do they find it? Police departments,” Police Officers Association of Michigan President James Tagnanelli told the News.

“I’ve spent eight years in traffic services, and I was a crash reconstructionist for five years before that,” Michigan State Police Lieutenant Gary Megge told the News. “So I’ve seen my share of fatal wrecks, and I can tell you: Deaths are not caused by speeding. They’re caused by drinking, drugs and inattentiveness. The old adage that speed kills just isn’t realistic. The safest speed is the speed that is correct for that roadway at a given time. A lot of speed limits are set artificially low.”

The Michigan State Police promotes setting limits according to the 85th percentile rule. This widely used principle is used to determine a practical speed limit by measuring how fast the vast majority of traffic, 85 percent, travel in safety.

“It just doesn’t seem right to me that we would enforce a law where 90-98 percent of the people are in violation of it,” Lieutenant Megge told the News. “It’s not the way we should do business in this country.”

[DTMracer]

A police chief talking common sense?

[Ottobon]

Told you guys the police here are reasonable. I've always been a quick driver but i don't seem to get pulled over, most likely because i see the cell-phoning, yelling at the kids in the backseat, tailgating assholes getting pulled over more the less. Speed just gives the police a well accepted reason to pull people over. So if you have 90% of the population driving over the speed limit, yet you still enforce it, you can pick and choose who the real offenders are. Its still limiting speed limits, which in my honest opinion sucks, but its about the furthest thing from speed cameras possible.

[public]

"I say, Parking tickets! You're crazy, i don't...

He says, well, they have some outstanding warrants left on you and they want to just solve them you know, whatever it'll be. So they take me in on a chain down to Long Beach and now they lock me up in the cell behind the courtroom in Long Beach while I'm awaiting to be heard on my traffic offenses! Parking tickets!

I panicked, I'm thinking, oh my God, man, while I'm here, what's to stop them? I mean what's really to stop them, oh, I assumed that maybe some day my mother would realize that I should have gotten out! Yeah, she was nice, she would have known but still, what's to stop them? And finally they called, so, they called, oh, man... scared..."

Where's the quote from?

[fbc]

“I’ve spent eight years in traffic services, and I was a crash reconstructionist for five years before that,” Michigan State Police Lieutenant Gary Megge told the News. “So I’ve seen my share of fatal wrecks, and I can tell you: Deaths are not caused by speeding. They’re caused by drinking, drugs and inattentiveness. The old adage that speed kills just isn’t realistic. The safest speed is the speed that is correct for that roadway at a given time. A lot of speed limits are set artificially low.”

Gary Megge, thank you. Now can someone please explain that to the Police here?

[Dogbert]

Holy crap, who pissed off every cop in Michigan today?

[tigger]

Originally Posted by DTMracer

A police chief talking common sense?

Yeah, my mind is officially blown.

Cops not only saying it's all about revenue generation, but debunking the old 'speed kills' adage too? It must be a cold day in hell.

[BlaRo]

I imagine Gary Megge is going to sit by himself at the next policeman's ball.

However, we John Q. Publics salute your noble sacrifice, sir.

[colddayin-hell]

Originally Posted by tigger

Yeah, my mind is officially blown.

Cops not only saying it's all about revenue generation, but debunking the old 'speed kills' adage too? It must be a cold day in hell.

You rang?

[MadCat360]

Originally Posted by colddayin-hell

You rang?

You need to apply yourself more often.

I forget what state it was... I think it was actually Michigan. A few years ago some legislation expired or something and the speed limits went away for a bit. Wrecks went down, deaths went down... it got safer.

Then there was the point many years ago when the speed limits were lowered nationally during WWII I think it was. The government came out and said (and still say) that the reduction in speed limits lowered accident rates.

Well the secret story there is that there were A LOT less people on the road with the limit on gasoline at the time. So obviously there were less accidents.

I like the sound of this 85th percentile way. Still allows the law to punish people going excessively fast, but lets people go at more or less their own pace (which is safer). But, the problem is it opens the situation up for interpretation by the officer. So it's open for abuse.

[prizrak]

Originally Posted by tigger

Yeah, my mind is officially blown.

Cops not only saying it's all about revenue generation, but debunking the old 'speed kills' adage too? It must be a cold day in hell.

Yeah its pretty cold here right now

I like the sound of this 85th percentile way. Still allows the law to punish people going excessively fast, but lets people go at more or less their own pace (which is safer). But, the problem is it opens the situation up for interpretation by the officer. So it's open for abuse.

I don't like it at all. There is no law that governs their decision making. Also if the road has few cars on it and I'm going 110 but not weaving I see no reason for me to stopped even if everyone else is go 50 (assuming the road allows such speeds). I like the Isle of Man way of doing things, no speed limits outside of the village limits. There is no reason whatsoever to set a speed limit on a highway outside of road works, traffic will always self regulate.

As an example there are two major roads in Brooklyn they kinda go around it from two sides. One is the Belt parkway and the other Brooklyn-Queens expressway (they are joined by Gowanus expressway). Traffic is about the same on all of them, Belt has nice road surface that gets periodically renewed, BQE and Gowanus have really shitty surface and while it gets renewed they way they are built and the trucks fuck it up very quickly. Average speed on a clear day on the Belt is 60-70mph with a limit of 50 on Gowanus/BQE it's 50-55 with a limit of 45-50. People simply don't go as fast, because the road sux.

[jack_christie]

There was a case years ago in Germany, maybe ten years ago, ZDF Frontal had a report about a judge caught speeding who sued a local authority for rapacity, because they were issuing so many speeding fines.

[tigger]

Originally Posted by colddayin-hell

You rang?

Originally Posted by MadCat360

You need to apply yourself more often.

What he said.

I don't like the idea of leaving what constitutes a speeding violation to the interpretation of an officer. I'd prefer to see a hike in speed limits, especially on the interstates.

On I70 in Kansas the speed limit is 70mph. 70mph on a well maintained, mostly straight 4-6 lane interstate. The defacto limit is 80mph, cops won't even look at you unless you're doing more. On the turnpike, were there are almost never cops, people do 90-100, or more. And yet every time it comes up in the legislature, they won't even raise it to the federal limit of 75mph.

Getting all those legislators to eat their old 'speed kills' mentality would be harder than getting them to end the "war on drugs".

[Spectre]

Originally Posted by MadCat360

You need to apply yourself more often.

I forget what state it was... I think it was actually Michigan. A few years ago some legislation expired or something and the speed limits went away for a bit. Wrecks went down, deaths went down... it got safer.

It was Montana. After the NMSL expired (the Federal speed limit law), Montana immediately posted all their highways as having a limit of "Reasonable And Prudent". That worked, but some idiot ACLU type complained that R&P was too vague and unenforceable; between that and the US Congress saying that they would withhold highway funds (because it made other states look bad) unless Montana imposed speed limits again, Montana posted the usual 75mph limits.

However, if you are now caught speeding on these rural highways in Montana, it is no longer a speeding ticket, but an "energy conservation violation" and I don't recall it going on your license.

I like the sound of this 85th percentile way. Still allows the law to punish people going excessively fast, but lets people go at more or less their own pace (which is safer). But, the problem is it opens the situation up for interpretation by the officer. So it's open for abuse.

California's done this on their highways for years, in a rare show of common sense. The 85th percentile speed is determined by a traffic survey of a given three mile stretch of road, as performed by the state highway authority. This survey is repeated at (I think) five year intervals. No officer interpretation needed.

Thing is, the cop still writes you up for violating the posted limit - you get out of it by showing the judge the traffic study for that stretch of road.

[Dins]

I'm quite impressed. Has change really come to America and the bullshitting may finally end?

[Twerp128]

I've noticed most cops don't go after you unless your going miles faster then the flow of traffic. They tend to seek out the ones that don't signal, run stop signs, etc.

[TBoneUs]

Either way, I don't go anywhere without my Escort 9500i. Don't trust the cops at all not to give me a ticket, too many small town speed traps around here.

[MadCat360]

Originally Posted by Spectre

California's done this on their highways for years, in a rare show of common sense. The 85th percentile speed is determined by a traffic survey of a given three mile stretch of road, as performed by the state highway authority. This survey is repeated at (I think) five year intervals. No officer interpretation needed.

Thing is, the cop still writes you up for violating the posted limit - you get out of it by showing the judge the traffic study for that stretch of road.

O rly? I had no idea. I live in Cali.

Originally Posted by prizrak

I don't like it at all. There is no law that governs their decision making. Also if the road has few cars on it and I'm going 110 but not weaving I see no reason for me to stopped even if everyone else is go 50 (assuming the road allows such speeds). I like the Isle of Man way of doing things, no speed limits outside of the village limits. There is no reason whatsoever to set a speed limit on a highway outside of road works, traffic will always self regulate.

As an example there are two major roads in Brooklyn they kinda go around it from two sides. One is the Belt parkway and the other Brooklyn-Queens expressway (they are joined by Gowanus expressway). Traffic is about the same on all of them, Belt has nice road surface that gets periodically renewed, BQE and Gowanus have really shitty surface and while it gets renewed they way they are built and the trucks fuck it up very quickly. Average speed on a clear day on the Belt is 60-70mph with a limit of 50 on Gowanus/BQE it's 50-55 with a limit of 45-50. People simply don't go as fast, because the road sux.

Yeah. You're right. The Isle on Man way is better.

Originally Posted by Twerp128

I've noticed most cops don't go after you unless your going miles faster then the flow of traffic. They tend to seek out the ones that don't signal, run stop signs, etc.

The rule I live by is that as long as there is someone going faster than me in my near area then I won't get pulled.

Then there's the whole "10 over on the freeway" and "5 over in rural/city" rule which seems to work pretty well.

[Ottobon]

Originally Posted by MadCat360

I like the sound of this 85th percentile way. Still allows the law to punish people going excessively fast

No no no, clear and prudent is much better, unless you lift the cap off the 85th percentile once the roads are open. A car going unusually quick in the middle of a vacant area may be breaking the 85th percentile, but it shows respect to the conditions its in, thus the person behind the wheel is showing attention. A person trying to drive at the 85th percentile threw a crowd of geese is someone who deserves the attention of the police.

As i've said before, i don't care how people choose to drive, so long as they pay attention to their driving.


My biggest grief is that if we ever expect the government to atleast feel comfortable around the idea of speed, then the public opinion has to reflect that. Currently i feel many people at this forum live rather hypocritically, obviously being car people, yet denouncing speed like its a act of treason.

[Aarmin]

I'm just thankful speeding cameras are not popping up here in the States, unless I am unaware?

Frankly, without speed limits, how much faster and less attentive would the local Philadelphia citizens drive.

I do not think speed is a safety issue, but two days ago it must have to an hour for me to get into the city because the interstate was so backed up. Everyone is out for themselves, selfish, ignorant, and plan stupid. You have seen them, maybe you are one of them. The light turns green, the hammer the gas to only slow down at the next red light or bottlneck of cars; driving in the city of Philadelphia would be much smoother if their was teamwork; if there is no attention hear, then I will not feel safe if one is allowed to drive 70+mph down route 611 (there are a lot of blind spots).