Relatively complete Nurburgring Times list w/ Sources

[D-Fence]

Originally Posted by XYZviper

The weight of the Veyron is not a quastion. It can weigh 420000000lbs, but if it does 0 - 100mk/h in 2.5 s. it should show. And I bet it corners good to.

So maby the driver or the conditions was the isue or both.

Koenigsegg CCR was second to the 250 m/h race, but it is higher in this list. So who knows how this thing works. Ant it was lapt by their own driver as I understand.

Pagani Zonda F is faster then them both by ~10 seconds Thats the important thing to me.

Or it´s the simple reason, that VW won´t allow journalists to push a 1 million veyron to the edge.

[Vitamin J]

It's a pretty similar design. But the first gen 1.8L (~123hp) cars get 50lbs weight penalty, and the newer second gen 1.8L (135hp) cars get 100lbs weight penalty.

[GraemeH]

Originally Posted by YF19pilot

A pro driver in an Elise will out run a pro driver in an S2000, especially on a techinical track like Tsukuba!

I'll agree with that part in general. But like i say, there are better and worse drivers.

[Vitamin J]

Originally Posted by GraemeH

I'll agree with that part in general. But like i say, there are better and worse drivers.

So they doubly handicap the expensive cars by putting them at the back and giving them worse drivers. I got news, I can keep up with the newbies in Spec Racer Fords in my Spec Miata on track, but that's just because they aren't very good drivers. A good driver would leave me for dead. The test is worthless if its unfair.

[marcos_eirik]

Form BMI I'm under the impression that whatever Gan-San drives wins anyway... Actually in one of their supercar vs JDM battles the 996 Turbo started from all the way back in the field and used just one of the three laps to get past the R-34 GTR. The cars in it was: Lancer EVO 7 RS, Skyline GTR R-34, NSX, C5 Corvette Z51, 360 Modena and 996 Turbo.

[GraemeH]

Originally Posted by Vitamin J

I got news, I can keep up with the newbies in Spec Racer Fords in my Spec Miata on track

I don't care.

I don't see it as a double handicap. They have to decide where to put what driver and what car to which grid slot. Deciding based on price seems fair enough to me. We could argue about the variables all day long. I'm simply offering an explanation for why some races may not seem to go the way you'd expect.

[Vitamin J]

Originally Posted by GraemeH

I don't care.

I don't see it as a double handicap. They have to decide where to put what driver and what car to which grid slot. Deciding based on price seems fair enough to me. We could argue about the variables all day long. I'm simply offering an explanation for why some races may not seem to go the way you'd expect.

Why not do it like EVERY OTHER FORM OF RACING EVER and grid them according to a qualifying time? They could reverse it if they wanted.

[GraemeH]

So i'm still not seeing where the bias comes from. You're saying they're biased against expensive cars? The NSX and GT-R have been at or near the back on price before in their battles, so I don't see where any of this is going.

Maybe they want to emphasize value for money? High speed to cost ratios? What's the problem.

[Vitamin J]

I don't want to turn this into a BM thread. It's about the Nurburgring, there's plenty of information on the subject if you really want to know. Use google.

[Homer_Bart]

Has anyone got the slowest lap record for the nurburgring?

[jetsetter]

Originally Posted by Homer_Bart

Has anyone got the slowest lap record for the nurburgring?

Well, if a car crashed before finishing one lap around the ring then.........forever.

[GraemeH]

Originally Posted by Vitamin J

there's plenty of information on the subject if you really want to know. Use google.

Then why bring up off-topic conspiracy theories? I was the one answering you, use google yourself.

Anyway back to the ring, the weight of the veyron is irrelevant because what matters is speed. Weight is just a component of speed. 2.5 to 60 is as fast as an Ariel Atom, so i wouldn't expect the veyron to be slower than any other car because of its weight.

[XYZviper]

Originally Posted by Vitamin J

There was an issue of Automobile where they wanted to find out just how close the RS4 was to the Carrera, and it turns out its faster. Rear engine and all.

If you think weight (especially 1000lbs) doesn't matter, then you have no place on this board. I race in Spec Miata, my car has a 1.6L engine and weighs 2300lbs. The 1.8L cars are faster on the straights because they have more power, but they have an extra 100lbs of weight which slows them down BIG TIME in the corners.

I do have a place on this board so dont give me that bla bla...

Maby you didn't understand what I'v had in mind. Yeas I know that weigt is a very big thing when we talk about performance. But its a Veyron and it's performance is mind blowing and everyone knows that. So why it did so bad on the ring.

+ all these test were made by profesionall and not drivers so thats the main isue I think.

They should give the cars to The Stig after he learnd the track like he knows the Top Gear track.

Peace

[Vitamin J]

Originally Posted by GraemeH

Then why bring up off-topic conspiracy theories? I was the one answering you, use google yourself.

Anyway back to the ring, the weight of the veyron is irrelevant because what matters is speed. Weight is just a component of speed. 2.5 to 60 is as fast as an Ariel Atom, so i wouldn't expect the veyron to be slower than any other car because of its weight.

Straight line speed is important, but so is cornering speed. Watch this video, a Lotus Elise catches a Bugatti Veyron:

[bone]

no way that veyron was even trying to be fast

[YF19pilot]

Originally Posted by XYZviper

I do have a place on this board so dont give me that bla bla...

Maby you didn't understand what I'v had in mind. Yeas I know that weigt is a very big thing when we talk about performance. But its a Veyron and it's performance is mind blowing and everyone knows that. So why it did so bad on the ring.

+ all these test were made by profesionall and not drivers so thats the main isue I think.

They should give the cars to The Stig after he learnd the track like he knows the Top Gear track.

Peace

I like the excuse "Its a Veyron so it should pwned everything." Sounds too much like all those Skyline GT-R fanboys.

Anyways, I'm going to cross referance an important term from the Aerospace industry, because it's equally important here: Stability. You will see, after this, that the Bugatti is a relatively stable car, which is good considering its monsterous power. But stability can work against it, too. And here's how:

1) A stable car (or airplane) holds its attitude very well, but is reluctant to turn. So, a stable car will understeer...

2) A heavy car is more stable than a light one. Light cars are able to turn quicker, because the forces acting on it when turning (radial acceleration, inertia, etc.) are less. remember, F = m*a.

3) The Bugatti is mid-engine. Mid Engine allows the car to be close to 0 stability, but often times makes it slightly unstable (oversteers). Porsches have rear engines, which are even more unstable.

4) The Bugatti is AWD. FF is the most stable of platforms, but AWD is more stable than FR, MR, and RR.

5) Traction control. Often times, traction control devices work by limiting the engine's out put, slowing it down to regain traction. It is likely the Bugatti's was on, while the other cars had little or no traction control, which will result in a faster time (think Gran Tourismo).

6) Downforce. I don't know the coeffecient of downforce/lift/whatever of the Bugatti or the other cars, but this could be a very good reason why its not that fast.

7) The Nurburgring isn't Daytona. There are turns. There are sharp turns. There are many places that a car as powerful and heavy as the Veyron (like a stock car) can "get light". Again this is in referance to weight and is more of a coallary to #1

8) Someone did mention that the Veyron wasn't being driven by someone well seasoned at driving the green hell. A fast car does not equal a fast driver, the whole issue of argument over BM.


The Veyron is a very stable car, and for a car of its power and performance, it needs to be. We all know what can happen with something with similar performance that isn't as stable (Koneigsegg CCX). So just because it's the fastest top speed car in the world, doesn't mean it'll be the fastest car around a decently fast track. There's more to it than just pure brute force. Also, it's my understanding that the Veyron's aerodynamics aren't that great.

And why not just use Sabime (is that spelling her name right?). She's already popular amongst the Top Gear crowd, and she did set that 10 minute time with the Transit.

[GraemeH]

2. Totally
6. I'd say again this isn't so relevant since it still does 250mph, the power is obviously enough to overcome its drag to a greater degree than other supercars can use their power to overcome their drag
7. Again, totally.

[Vitamin J]

Originally Posted by GraemeH

6. I'd say again this isn't so relevant since it still does 250mph, the power is obviously enough to overcome its drag to a greater degree than other supercars can use their power to overcome their drag

In "top speed" mode the coefficient of drag is .36, in "handling" mode it is .41, that would slow it way the fuck down.

[YF19pilot]

Originally Posted by GraemeH

6. I'd say again this isn't so relevant since it still does 250mph, the power is obviously enough to overcome its drag to a greater degree than other supercars can use their power to overcome their drag

Actually, it is very relevant. I'm not talking about how much drag its producing when going top speed, I'm talking about how much downforce it is producing when taking a turn! Power is great, but it won't get you through a corner quicker than a car that can stick to the road better...

[Svempa]

The Veyron might not be the fastest and not very suited for trackuse, but to call a 7:40 lap round the Nordschleife slow, is being a stupid. Nordschleife should also be one of the better suited tracks for the veyron because it favours highpower cars to a greater extent than other tracks.

I'm surprised though that people were expecting it to be the fastest car on track aswell. On track a big engine doesn't cut laptimes down as much as a well setup chassi and powerful brakes do. Also as said the Veyron weighs slightly less then the universe.

Some people here need to stop making the big hp = low laptimes equation and start thinking about what makes a car fast round the track. YF19pilot had some good points about that.

The Veyron was just built for one reason: To show off! It's only purpose was just to get the Fastest Production Car record to Wolfsburg. Not try to beat Bellofs recordtime.