The General Motorbikers Discussion Thread

[Censport]

I wouldn't say a CB750 Nighthawk is too big for a first bike. They're still easy to handle. My first bike was a 1985 CB650 Nighthawk (showing my age there, eh). My dad just got his motorcycle license (at age 72), and bought a Suzuki 650cc single-cylinder.

Now a 750 "Gixxer"... that's definitely not a good first bike.

[TomCat]

Thanks for all the info so far Spectre and everyone.

What do you guys think of Buells?

[Ottobon]

Originally Posted by TomCat

Thanks for all the info so far Spectre and everyone.

What do you guys think of Buells?

I've heard wonderful things about the blast (assuming were still talking starter bikes.) Supposidly its a starter bike that worth keeping well after you've learned how to ride properly, but i know nothing about its reliability and I'm going on hearsay from a MR2 forum.

[TomCat]

Originally Posted by Ottobon

I've heard wonderful things about the blast (assuming were still talking starter bikes.) Supposidly its a starter bike that worth keeping well after you've learned how to ride properly, but i know nothing about its reliability and I'm going on hearsay from a MR2 forum.

I'm thinking more about the future and if I was to buy a really nice bike as a primary means of transportation.

I think Buells are extremely interesting. They look very unique and I haven't seen many V-twin sport bikes elsewhere. I'm just curious if they're decent bikes. They seem to get very good fuel economy. I wonder if the V-twin motors are dependable and cheap to fix/maintain/replace. I don't know much about bikes, but for some reason I view the V-twin design like I view the pushrod V8's from Chevrolet: basic but effective. But Honda (and others) use 4 cylinder DOHC 4valve designs and I wonder if Honda bikes are as reliable and economical as Honda cars.

[Ottobon]

Originally Posted by TomCat

I'm thinking more about the future and if I was to buy a really nice bike as a primary means of transportation.

I think Buells are extremely interesting. They look very unique and I haven't seen many V-twin sport bikes elsewhere. I'm just curious if they're decent bikes. They seem to get very good fuel economy. I wonder if the V-twin motors are dependable and cheap to fix/maintain/replace. I don't know much about bikes, but for some reason I view the V-twin design like I view the pushrod V8's from Chevrolet: basic but effective. But Honda (and others) use 4 cylinder DOHC 4valve designs and I wonder if Honda bikes are as reliable and economical as Honda cars.

Errrr. yes?!? to all of that really. The advantages of the V-twin are summed up best here

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6K2CUdqURg[/YOUTUBE]

Kind of like a less exaggerated difference between 4 stroke single cylinders and 2 strokes (2 strokes being like inline 4s in that the power is less controllable) If you want American then Buell does seem to make good bikes, all of the Japanese have one sort of V-twin or another, and you can get a Ducati in good condition for under 10 grand (like my friends 620 Monster.) If you serious then i would recommend just test driving as many as possible!! Going just by hearsay on the internet will leave you short-sited and feeble.

So far as milage? Any bike with a good tune will do well, even a heavy and otherwise inefficient Harley can pull off 65mpg assuming it doesn't have its carb tuned by a complete idiot.

[BlaRo]

Chinese Police Destroy More Than 14,000 Illegal Motorcycles In Orgy Of Destruction

Hmm...my aunt lost her purse to some guy on a motorcycle. She was waiting in traffic when some guy knocks on her passenger door and tells her that her car's been hit, she should go out and check the damage...and when she gets out, some guy on a bike rides by and snatches her purse right out of her seat.

Pretty impressive, once I look back at it.

By the way, scooters are the freakin' rage here. Nobody rides bicycles anymore, apparently (what is this, the Cultural Revolution? ) so everybody rides these hideous Yamaha knockoffs, with horrid Engrish stickers plastered over the side. The cops use old Suzuki singles, 250cc. Apparently they sell Harleys here...haven't encountered one yet, though.

[Spectre]

Originally Posted by Ottobon

Speaking of the nighthawk, by any chance is that the bike from "Scorched", The one the dainty DND chick rode?

Not having seen the movie or show, I wouldn't be able to tell you.

Not to bring this up again, but for the record i've changed my mind about Honda Port designs after i found some proper photos, probably 99% of them are fine (especially their SOHC engines.) I still don't care for the way the proportion the valves to the primary pipes to the collectors, BUT theirs nothing wrong with it, especially as the Honda design essentially mimics much of what F1 cars are running for the last 30 or so years.

Um.... more like "F1's been copying Honda for the last 30 or so years".

And so GOOD of you to condescend to change your mind!

Originally Posted by Censport

I wouldn't say a CB750 Nighthawk is too big for a first bike. They're still easy to handle. My first bike was a 1985 CB650 Nighthawk (showing my age there, eh). My dad just got his motorcycle license (at age 72), and bought a Suzuki 650cc single-cylinder.

The pre-84 Nighthawk 750s aren't actually all that great at handling. Mostly they were just a CB750K with different styling and bodywork. They were more cruiser than standard and don't really fit with the rest of the line at all. They are also not related to the 91-up Nighthawk 750s. Those are quite decent handlers and were actually intended as learner/returner bikes.

Now a 750 "Gixxer"... that's definitely not a good first bike.

True.

Originally Posted by TomCat

What do you guys think of Buells?

They're crap. They couldn't get the Harley engines to work and be competitive, so now Rotax is making their engines for some of their bikes.

Originally Posted by TomCat

I'm thinking more about the future and if I was to buy a really nice bike as a primary means of transportation.

I think Buells are extremely interesting. They look very unique and I haven't seen many V-twin sport bikes elsewhere. I'm just curious if they're decent bikes. They seem to get very good fuel economy. I wonder if the V-twin motors are dependable and cheap to fix/maintain/replace. I don't know much about bikes, but for some reason I view the V-twin design like I view the pushrod V8's from Chevrolet: basic but effective. But Honda (and others) use 4 cylinder DOHC 4valve designs and I wonder if Honda bikes are as reliable and economical as Honda cars.

Honda bikes are MORE reliable and economical than their cars. The running joke is that the only reason Honda sells cars is so they can fund their racing and motorcycle/powersports divisions. Lots of truth in that.

The V-twins are more dependable than they used to be but they're not great. They're not cheap to fix, they're somewhat cheap to replace, they're pretty cheap to maintain - but you have to do more work and more maintenance than you do on a comparable Honda. Honda also makes V-Twins - some with 5 valves and gear or chain driven OHC systems.

If you want a good V-Twin, don't buy it from Harley. See FordCrusherGT on this forum - he just went shopping for a V-Twin cruiser and found the Harleys to be vast disappointments. He bought a Honda VTX1800 instead. (1.8L V-twin cruiser)

Originally Posted by Ottobon

Errrr. yes?!? to all of that really. The advantages of the V-twin are summed up best here

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6K2CUdqURg[/YOUTUBE]

Kind of like a less exaggerated difference between 4 stroke single cylinders and 2 strokes (2 strokes being like inline 4s in that the power is less controllable) If you want American then Buell does seem to make good bikes, all of the Japanese have one sort of V-twin or another, and you can get a Ducati in good condition for under 10 grand (like my friends 620 Monster.) If you serious then i would recommend just test driving as many as possible!! Going just by hearsay on the internet will leave you short-sited and feeble.

So far as milage? Any bike with a good tune will do well, even a heavy and otherwise inefficient Harley can pull off 65mpg assuming it doesn't have its carb tuned by a complete idiot.

Wow! More book learning that's TOTALLY wrong! From the same source, no less!

No, that's not what the difference is between a four and a twin. Less controllable? Hah. Kevin Cameron has some points, but he's wrong about that. It's also interesting that Mr. Cameron hasn't actually designed a bike in, oh, twenty years. That, and Freddy Spencer, the famous Honda racer who's win record is still unequalled, says he's full of crap about power delivery. Mythical power pulses aside, he does have a point about smooth power delivery - but an I4 with proper carburetion and setup is going to have power delivery that's as smooth if not smoother. If you set up the bike wrong, sure, you'll lose the rear end if it comes "on the cam" mid-corner - but that's not an I4 vs V2 thing at all!

And the thing that NONE of the Euros in that video are willing to mention is that the 916 and the later 996 only racked up so many victories because the inline 4s in their racing series were limited to 750cc or less whereas the V-twins could have up to 1000cc - because given the same displacement and weight, an I4 will RAPE a V2 in most any sort of roadrace. Yup, that's right. In order to allow Ducati to win, the FIM rules were set up so that everyone BUT Ducati was at a 250cc disadvantage.

When Honda got tired of playing by that stupid rulebook, they built the RC51, a V-twin sportbike of their own - and promptly mopped for floor with Ducati. At which point *everyone* lost interest in World Superbike and moved back over to MotoGP.

Buells are barely American. Take all the foreign parts off them and what you have is an engine, half of the suspension, a frame, and some bodywork. Everything else is made elsewhere. Buells are also outrageously overpriced for what you (don't) get, and service/parts can be an issue, though you can often use Harley parts for engine and engine controls in a pinch.

And actually, the big Harleys *don't* get 65mpg. Only the little Sportsters and the lightweight models can even approach that. And they usually have tiny gas tanks for styling reasons, so you're going to be refuelling early and often.

I'm going to repeat what someone else said upthread - Pretty much everyone but BMW owners acknowledges Honda as the maker of the most reliable and longlived bikes. The BMW owners' exception is because they can't believe they spent so much money on such a complicated bike that they *can't* accept that a bike that cost half as much or less kicks its butt in any regime they care to name.

[hansvonaxion]

Originally Posted by Spectre

Yup, that's right. In order to allow Ducati to win, the FIM rules were set up so that everyone BUT Ducati was at a 250cc disadvantage.

When Honda got tired of playing by that stupid rulebook, they built the RC51, a V-twin sportbike of their own - and promptly mopped for floor with Ducati. At which point *everyone* lost interest in World Superbike and moved back over to MotoGP.

I don't know about the rules being written for that specific purpose. Did the other manufacturers not protest? They probably figured it was fair. Honda, and anyone else could have built a V-twin at any time, no-one was stopping them.

And I'm not so sure about "mopping the floor". I haven't followed superbikes for a while, but I did watch around that time.

Here are the manufacturer's results from the sbk homepage.

2007
YAMAHA

2006
DUCATI

2005
SUZUKI

2004
DUCATI

2003
DUCATI

2002
DUCATI

2001
DUCATI

2000
DUCATI

1999
DUCATI

1998
DUCATI

1997
HONDA

1996
DUCATI

1995
DUCATI

1994
DUCATI

1993
DUCATI

1992
DUCATI

1991
DUCATI

1990
HONDA

1989
HONDA

1988
HONDA

[TomCat]

Originally Posted by Spectre

They're crap. They couldn't get the Harley engines to work and be competitive, so now Rotax is making their engines for some of their bikes.

Buells are barely American. Take all the foreign parts off them and what you have is an engine, half of the suspension, a frame, and some bodywork. Everything else is made elsewhere. Buells are also outrageously overpriced for what you (don't) get, and service/parts can be an issue, though you can often use Harley parts for engine and engine controls in a pinch.

I'm not really concerned with buying domestic, I just think Buell bikes are unique. Besides them not being entirely American, is there anything else bad about them? Are the Rotax motors crap? They're really not any more expensive then comparable Honda's, if the the official sites are accurate. And I have multiple dealerships with service/repair facilities in my area.

I'm still more drawn to the Honda bikes, as I think they'll be better in almost every way. I just wanted some more info. If I was to buy a Honda bike, I could very easily misplace it among all the other Honda bikes at my office. And I'm not joking when I say that.

[Ottobon]

Whatever, i could care less about all manufacturer wins the've had, all i want to know about right now is how the hell i can get a FL-250, Not exactly a motorcycle, but damn it looks like fun!!

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgQj8CVyIVM&NR=1[/YOUTUBE]

Hells yeah!!

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Censport

Now a 750 "Gixxer"... that's definitely not a good first bike.

It was my first big bike, and I'm still here. Goes to show that if you are mature enough the bike doesn't matter.

[Spectre]

Originally Posted by hansvonaxion

I don't know about the rules being written for that specific purpose. Did the other manufacturers not protest? They probably figured it was fair. Honda, and anyone else could have built a V-twin at any time, no-one was stopping them.

And I'm not so sure about "mopping the floor". I haven't followed superbikes for a while, but I did watch around that time.

The other makers did protest, but to no avail.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_RC51

In 1988, new rules in superbike racing allowed V-twin engines up to 999 cc's to compete. Prior to the rules change, 750 cc four cylinder motorcycles were the dominant force in World Superbike racing. The first two years, Honda continued to win the World Superbike Championship with their RC30, powered by a 750 cm3 V-4. In 1990, however, Raymond Roche secured Ducati's first world title aboard the Ducati 851. Throughout the next 11 years, Ducati would go on to win 8 World Superbike Championships with their V-twins (Honda won two and Kawasaki just one).[2]

Despite having an excellent engineering team and a significant amount of money, Honda was unable to win consistently, particularly because of rival V-twins' displacement advantage over Honda's V-4. In 2000 Honda released the RC51, powered by a 998 cc liquid-cooled V-twin engine. That year, it won the World Superbike Championship with Colin Edwards riding for the Castrol team. In 2001, Ducati regained the title, but the RC51 was still a contender boasting reliability, speed, and power. The RC51 won again in its final year of factory-supported racing in World Superbike in 2002 and that same year also captured the AMA superbike title with Nicky Hayden Honda therefore took the lessons learned in the SP-l's first season, producing the SP-2 for 2002. A stronger, more rigid frame and swingarm are identical to the WSB race bike parts, and a host of engine modifications boosted peak power by 3kW (4bhp), and cut weight by 5kg (11lb).

Honda stopped official support for Superbike racing in 2003 (though various teams have had some factory support) and as Superbike rules changed to allow 1000 cc 4 cylinder bikes the RC51 was replaced by the CBR1000RR Fireblade as the Honda superbike racer.


***

Note that after Honda started winning with the RC51, two things happened:
1. FIM decided that trying to keep the four cylinders out via displacement was stupid, since Honda proved that they could beat Ducati at their own game.
2. All the money and interest left (along with most of the top riders) and went to MotoGP.

Ducati started winning after the other factory support went away, but that's just because Ducati's factory efforts stayed in WSB and everyone else is looking at MotoGP.

Originally Posted by avanti

It was my first big bike, and I'm still here. Goes to show that if you are mature enough the bike doesn't matter.

First *big* bike. Which implies you rode and had other motorcycles before. What we're talking about are people whose first bike *EVER* is a Gixxer 750. Or rather was, because they usually end up wrecked with the rider severely hurt or dead.

[Spectre]

Originally Posted by TomCat

I'm not really concerned with buying domestic, I just think Buell bikes are unique. Besides them not being entirely American, is there anything else bad about them? Are the Rotax motors crap? They're really not any more expensive then comparable Honda's, if the the official sites are accurate. And I have multiple dealerships with service/repair facilities in my area.

I'm still more drawn to the Honda bikes, as I think they'll be better in almost every way. I just wanted some more info. If I was to buy a Honda bike, I could very easily misplace it among all the other Honda bikes at my office. And I'm not joking when I say that.

Rotax engines are pretty good. BMW chose them to make the original F650 engine, IIRC.

Unfortunately, the rest of the bike isn't so good. Buells end up being garage queens more often than not - and I don't think anyone's actually managed to finish in the top 30 on a Buell in the Iron Butt, mostly because they break down a lot (on par with an 80s domestic car, from what I've seen and heard).

[Karoug]

^^But then Ducati cried that it wasn't any fun for them, so now they have 1200cc V-twins.. I don't get why the Japanese doesn't move away from superbike and start their own championship..

Rotax engines can be found in a lot of different vehicles and they are usually quite good.

My first "big" bike was a Sook RF900, a brilliant looking thing..

[pfrocker]

I've already mention this in another thread that I'm a new rider. Well just wanted to update everyone that I passed my MSF course! It was very fun and the hardest part was that damn slow u-turn within a marked "box". I was riding a Kawasaki Eliminator which was a very forgiving bike and easy to ride on.

Anyway, will get my certificate in a couple days through my mail. Can't wait!

[Spectre]

Ah, yes, the California "wobble around the cones" and "wobble around in a circle" tests, neither one of which have much bearing in real life. I don't remember them fondly.

Do you know that there are some bikes that are just too large to pass those tests now? That's why there's THE local Nighthawk/Ninja 250/450/500 parked outside some CA DMV locations with a "For Rent" sign on them - for those people who have to take the test (again) because their touring rig or supersport bike couldn't make the U-turn.

Originally Posted by Karoug

^^But then Ducati cried that it wasn't any fun for them, so now they have 1200cc V-twins.. I don't get why the Japanese doesn't move away from superbike and start their own championship..

If FIM wasn't so idiotically Eurocentric or Euro-protective, their reply to Ducati's complaints should have been "build better motorcycles, then you can win." Moral of story - V-twins only win when everyone else is handicapped. Just ask Harley about how well their VR1000 did - they couldn't win even with Miguel DuHamel, Doug Chandler, or Scott Russell piloting the thing!

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/vr1000_obit.htm

As for why the Japanese don't pack up and leave... mostly it's because they'd have to get new riders (the top talent would stay with the premier MotoGP series), and almost none of the Japanese can ride worth a damn - at least at top-tier competition levels, anyway. Same problem the Japanese have with F1.

MotoGP looks to be morphing into WSB Take Two... you never know, maybe the Japanese makers will say "the heck with it" and go form their own series. I suspect MotoGP and the FIM might collapse or start having problems if they did, though.

Rotax engines can be found in a lot of different vehicles and they are usually quite good.

Agreed on the Rotax. BMW thought they were good enough to repackage with a BMW logo on the outside - which says something.

[TJP]

Seeing as we are discussing World Superbikes, RIP to Craig Jones who died Sunday night after a very nasty crash in the WSS race.

http://www.ducati.com/clinica_mobile...ticle&periodo=

[Karoug]

Originally Posted by Spectre

MotoGP looks to be morphing into WSB Take Two... you never know, maybe the Japanese makers will say "the heck with it" and go form their own series. I suspect MotoGP and the FIM might collapse or start having problems if they did, though.

Ducati dosn't have an advantage in the engine department in the MotoGP. They have the 800cc 4 cylinder engine like the rest of the pack..And Ducati can only produce 1 good bike, because Melandri is a good rider but he can't make the Ducati work (same goes for the other two Ducati riders)... And Rossi was planning on going to Ducati but he decided to stay with Yamaha, I think that says alot.. I also think Dorna is a better at getting things even that the ppl that handles the WSB.

[hansvonaxion]

Spectre, that info you gave doesn't say anything about protest, but I did some reading and found some info about it. I guess I was happy just watching the racing, I didn't get into the politics at the time.

And that info is at odds with the info from the SBK homepage, unless wiki is talking about the Rider's champ instead of the Manufacturer's champ (which would be misleading). The wiki page does say there may be errors, to do with timeline etc.

Also, I don't get exactly how anyone expects V-twins to compete at the same capacity with no handicapping.

From the beginning there was always a FIM-mandated handicapping system to try and provide a level playing ground for machines with different numbers of cylinders. At first four cylinder bikes up to 750cc raced against twins up to just over 850cc. There were varying minimum weights to compensate for a lesser number of cylinders. Later, and skipping over years of debate and compromise, the formula became 750cc fours, 900cc triples and 1000cc twins, and finally a straight 1000cc displacement limit and identical minimum weight of 165 kilograms, but with much more freedom to modify and replace components in the engines of twins. That is where we are today, but not, apparently, for much longer.

Now they want the capacity increased to 1200cc but they want to give up the tuning advantages given to V-twins, basically to make the bikes more cost effective. It makes sense, and if it goes through there are rumours that BMW, KTM and Buell might even join.

I can understand people getting pissed at the apparent favouritism (like Ferrari and F-1), but on the other hand V-twins do need a handicap and handicapping is not an exact science.

[Karoug]

Ducati are already running a 1200cc engine. And BMW will join next year with their S1000RR

KTM are also preparing their RC8, but it probably wont be ready to the next season(also a 1200cc v-twin).

Don't know about Buell though..


edit. found this:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpOgirObbNs[/YOUTUBE]