What cars do you consider 'brilliant failures'?

[MXM]

I know it's technically not a flop, just a limited run, but it was widely criticized in reviews iirc.

I do think it looks absolutely brilliant, and they should've improved the chassis and keep the design.

[Censport]

Originally Posted by Twerp128

As much as I don't like Ralph Nader, he didn't kill the Corvair (although he helped.) The Mustang killed the Corvair.

Originally Posted by thedguy

What? You do realize that the Corvair sold so well that it caused Ford to quickly put into production a competing product, that being the Ford Mustang. Corvair was one of the best selling cars in American history, and still sold well even after that book by Nadar.

Most of the Corvair clubs recognize that Nadar's book didn't kill the car. GM was already working on it's replacement (the Camaro).

Yes, I know that Nader didn't kill the Corvair (1966 was going to be the last year, to make way for the Camaro, but GM kept it in production another 3 years to save face.), but the Corvair did launch Nader's career.

And yes, I know that the 1960 Monza Coupe concept car inspired Lee Iaccoca to develop the Mustang, right down to the side "strakes". (That very car was used by a GM exec's daughter and has since been restored by CORSA.) And while the Monza coupe started out selling well, the numbers peaked in 1962, and continued to decrease every year except for 1965, when the svelte second generation was released. Total Corvair production, including vans, pickups and station wagons, was about 1.8 million. The Mustang was released as a 1964-1/2 model and had sold a million by the spring of 1966. And that was just with coupes, fastbacks and convertibles.

The Mustang has also remained in constant production ever since. Sadly, the same can't be said of the Corvair.

Something that was a bigger factor than Nader could ever be was money. Specifically, overhead. The Corvair was more expensive to produce than almost any other GM car, but wasn't an expensive on the sales floor.

Granted, I've enjoyed every one I've had, and I'm glad Ed Cole convinced Chevrolet to make it. But was it a success? Not only has the Corvair not been in production since 1969, but it's not coming back. Even the name won't be resurrected because of the stigma attached.

[MacGuffin]

Originally Posted by edkwon

VW Phaeton - a terrific luxury sedan, full of great technologies and capabilities, basically destroyed by it's badge and consumer prejudices

Well, first of all it is still in production and sells in low numbers and it will not die as long as its "daddy" Ferdinand Piech has anything to say at VW. They even managed to give one to former German chancellor Gerhard Schröder as his official car

I heard they even work on a follow-up model.

One major thing that made it unattractive, is the loss of value. It loses value much, much faster than its competitors from Audi, BMW and Mercedes and therefore was not chosen often. Also owners of a BMW 7-series or a Mercedes S-Class are very conservative and the Phaeton was not attractive enough to lure them away from their house brands.

And then there is the internal competition with the Audi A8...

But the biggest mistake they did, was the design. It looks too similar to the Passat of the same era, especially in the front.

They stopped selling it on the U.S. market but it is still made and sold here and recently I noticed more of them on the roads.

It would be sad to see it die, because it is a really brilliant car.

[edkwon]

Originally Posted by MacGuffin

Well, first of all it is still in production and sells in low numbers and it will not die as long as its "daddy" Ferdinand Piech has anything to say at VW. They even managed to give one to former German chancellor Gerhard Schröder as his official car


They stopped selling it on the U.S. market but it is still made and sold here and recently I noticed more of them on the roads.

It would be sad to see it die, because it is a really brilliant car.

They must have pulled it out of the UK market because its not listed in VW's current lineup there either.

[janstett]

Originally Posted by KaJuN

A true car of the times: a gas-saver that showed you didn't have to be boring to be economical.

You didn't even mention that it was mid-engined. A mid-engined GM car!

[H0nzik]

Another problem of the Phaeton is that they're being made in that small factory in a park in the center of Dresden, which certainly isn't the most efficient way of making cars. Like the Bugatti Veyron, it is more of a technological showcase, rather than a profitable model. But the factory is still running, so I guess thay're still being sold in some markets. And they're more common here too, lately. Maybe they're second hand imports from Germany, thanks to the quick depreciation.

[MacGuffin]

The factory has also been kept busy with assembling Bentleys. The lack of sales of the Phaeton and the surprising success of the Bentley Continental equalled it out for the factory. After all, they share the same platform.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparent_Factory

[prizrak]

They stopped selling it on the U.S. market but it is still made and sold here and recently I noticed more of them on the roads.

I have seen 2 or 3 here actually.

[_HighVoltage_]

I can't believe nobody had mentioned it yet.
The astonishing BMW 850

Or how about this. The most interesting Subaru ever made - the SVX

[prizrak]

But was the 850 really a failure? I don't know enough about it to say, I thought that it was a limited run.

SVX is while insanely cool looking was a piece of crap, the understeer was etrocious and from all the reports I have read it would be in the shop more than it would be driving.

[_HighVoltage_]

The 8 series development costed 2.2 billion dollars! And they only made 30 000 during its whole production life.
"BMW pulled the 8 Series out of the North American market in 1997, selling only 7,232 cars over seven years"

The SVX was much of the same story - costed a lot to develop. Had a really funky design. People couldn't believe it's a Subaru. It was relatively fast - 155mph. Besides all this, people still didn't want it.

[Shawn]

^ Hey? What exactly about the 8-Series took them 2.2 billion in R&D? It wasn't that technologically advanced, was it?

Now they've figured out how to do business properly though... they expanded their lineup to cover every little niche with cars that overlap in so many areas.

[tedb43o2o3]

Originally Posted by public

Of course, the DeLorean DMC-12. A car for the future that took far more years to produce than it was in actual production (1981-1982)...



It was planned to become a volume seller, but was too fat, too expensive and the anti-smog equipment crippled the performance.

I totally agree with you....

[wooflepoof]

Originally Posted by _HighVoltage_

I can't believe nobody had mentioned it yet.
The astonishing BMW 850

QFT

[WellsieTRD]

Chalk up another one for the NSX. Sorely needed more power to be taken seriously as a rival for the European supercars.

Toyota Celica
I think Toyota missed an opportunity with the Celica, paticularly the 5th and 7th generations. It could have been so better.

Toyota MR2
Same with the Celica, Toyota just let the MR2 die.

Holden Camira
Call me biased because I had one, but Holden were on to something with this car. It handled well, rode nicely, had good interior space for the day and the Family 2 engines made only 3kw less than the 3.3l 6 in the Commadores of the time in 1.6l configuration. Pitty they messed it up by blessing the early ones with terrible reliablilty, dopey 3 speed autos and messed up the change to unleaded on the JD.

[Programme]

Originally Posted by Adunaphel

NSU Ro80
http://img.phyrefile.com/adunaphel/2...0013.Image.jpg

[snip]

The list includes all-round discbrakes, independent suspension all-round (front McPherson struts and rear semi-trailing arm suspension, both of which can be found in 90% of modern cars), power-assisted rack-and-pinion steering (as opposed to the then more common recirculating ball system), a semi-automatic gearbox with vacuum operated clutch, and a very aerodynamic exterior design, which influenced lots of aerodynamic cars of the 1980s, most notably the C3 Audi 100.

The Citroen DS basically had all of that, except the brakes - discs on the front (a first for a mass produced car), but drums on the rear.

But the Citroen came out in 1955, 11 years before the Ro80.

I don't know about calling the Ro80 a failure though - it was produced for 10 years and, as you say, very advanced. If you want to call something a failure, what about the unloved cousin of the Ro80: the Citroen GS Birotor. Arguably as complicated as the Ro80 and a bigger failure!

[Dsemaj]

Originally Posted by fbc

The problem with the 380 was how it looked inside & out - just so dull & plain. If you want large Aussie that's dull & plain you get a Camry - the 380 needed to be different, it needed to spark people's interest. I'd not class it as a 'brilliant' failure, it just wasn't brilliant in any way - it was competent & merely matched the class average when it was launched. It was doomed.

Exactly. It didn't help that it's predecessor, the Magna had the bowls-and-cardigan image.

What sums this car up most of all is that the base model was the fastest car in the range, due to the lack of extra weight from equipment. I've read reviews where they've claimed the base model was the best in the range. But you tell me who is going to buy something that looks like the 380.. with extra dull.

It could have been completely different if Mitsubishi weren't running out of money and hadn't been given one of the most awkward looking cars in the world as a starting point. Honestly, the design has absolutely no coherence at all. More awkward than a pimple faced teenage school presenting at an assembly. And if they'd bothered to get the supercharged version out and they marketed it to death, it might've been different.

Sad that the thing they needed, the supercharged halo model came out after it ended production.

[captain_70s]

The Leyland Princess, a car tarred with the same brush as the rest of Leyland bland mobiles when this one was actually quite good.
Concealed windscreen wipers, hydragas suspension and various other technological advances made it a pretty advanced car.
It had Harris Manns wedge styling too, shame Leyland cocked it up by building it to break down.



Or mabey this car is the one we are looking for the Aston Martin lagonda.

[Ironlord]

Originally Posted by Programme

I don't know about calling the Ro80 a failure though - it was produced for 10 years and, as you say, very advanced. If you want to call something a failure, what about the unloved cousin of the Ro80: the Citroen GS Birotor. Arguably as complicated as the Ro80 and a bigger failure!

What was the idea behind the GS Birotor's crazy three-speed semi-auto gearbox? They must have known it was going to be a massive gas-guzzler to start with... Was the Ro80's semi-auto a three-speed as well?

Even so, that still makes more sense than the 1980s Suzuki Alto, still made by Maruti in India. "Just about bearable as a town car, but hopeless on the motorway", said Parker's Car Price Guide. How it was bearable as a town car is beyond me, as it had a 2-speed auto!

As for going back to brilliant failures? Everything I could think of has already been covered... about the closest I could come up with now is the Alfa Romeo 166, which Jezza's already waxed lyrical about. After the mid-life facelift, obviously... and does it qualify as "brilliant" other than being an Alfa?

Researching some old Alfas, I found carsfromitaly.com'