What unibody SUVs/crossovers have decent off-road ability?

[Blind_Io]

Um, no?

http://treadlightly.org/

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Yeah, zookiemike linked to treadlightly a while back, but by that point it was too late.

[Mitlov]

Wait, what? An Element?

Sorry, I thought the title said "Decent offroad ability" not "utterly useless for anything more than hauling a bunch of balloons."
...
How the hell did he go from his first post to a tall, short not-quite-four-door station wagon?

Like I've said a couple times already, I started this thread and then my wife changed her priorities. I know the Element doesn't hold a candle to the XTerra off-road. But it's a moot point because my wife changed her mind about her priorities.

As to who wears the pants, it's HER car. I have my Jetta and my SV650; this is hers. I was just trying to help do some background research for her. But it's not my job to tell my wife what she needs to buy for her daily driver.

It's not even practical for kids because of the funky suicide half-door.

Do you have kids? We do (a six-month-old and a three-year-old) and we love those doors. With middle-schoolers and above it might be annoying, but they're definitely better than traditional doors for loading in a three-year old.

[Blind_Io]

I didn't read the whole thread because I've been away from my computer for the weekend, so sorry if I missed the bit where you took a left turn and wandered over to tall hatchbacks.

Based on the first page I thought you needed something safe with good street manners that would haul the family up fire access roads to campsites once the munchkins got older. The Element won't do that last part, and if you try it will be in the shop after every trip having the suspension torn down.

Going from an off-road capable SUV to an Element is like going from a Porsche to... well, and Element. The two aren't even in the same ballpark.

I get that the Element is kind of funky and urban, but it's size is deceptive. It's really not capable of carrying much more than an Accord, at least in terms of weight. I've seen people try to move in an Element and it damn near destroyed the suspension. I had to unload some of the stuff and carry it in my Civic just so the Element wasn't down on the stops.

But I'm sure your wife will be happy with it. Just don't be fooled into thinking it can handle dirt or washboard, because you'll have an expensive lesson.

[argatoga]

I didn't read the whole thread because I've been away from my computer for the weekend, so sorry if I missed the bit where you took a left turn and wandered over to tall hatchbacks.

Based on the first page I thought you needed something safe with good street manners that would haul the family up fire access roads to campsites once the munchkins got older. The Element won't do that last part, and if you try it will be in the shop after every trip having the suspension torn down.

Going from an off-road capable SUV to an Element is like going from a Porsche to... well, and Element. The two aren't even in the same ballpark.

I get that the Element is kind of funky and urban, but it's size is deceptive. It's really not capable of carrying much more than an Accord, at least in terms of weight. I've seen people try to move in an Element and it damn near destroyed the suspension. I had to unload some of the stuff and carry it in my Civic just so the Element wasn't down on the stops.

But I'm sure your wife will be happy with it. Just don't be fooled into thinking it can handle dirt or washboard, because you'll have an expensive lesson.

I was expecting you to suggest a Flex for a softroader. Being one of the two people on Earth who like it.

//Yes I am the other one.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

I wouldn't call the Flex a softroader, it doesn't really have offroading pretensions. I love the Flex, though, I'd totally have an Ecoboost Flex if I had children, and money.

[Blind_Io]

The Flex isn't a softroader, it's a station wagon.

I got a chance to drive the V6 EcoBoost Flex and actually quite liked it. Kiki and my mom were riding in the back and they said it was really comfortable. The Flex was very responsive, not just for it's size, but in general.

If I knew Mitlov was looking at the Element I would have suggested he check out the Ford.

[Mitlov]

The Flex isn't a softroader, it's a station wagon.

I got a chance to drive the V6 EcoBoost Flex and actually quite liked it. Kiki and my mom were riding in the back and they said it was really comfortable. The Flex was very responsive, not just for it's size, but in general.

If I knew Mitlov was looking at the Element I would have suggested he check out the Ford.

I like the Ford Flex, but it's not remotely in the same price range as the Element. The cheapest AWD Flex is nearly $10,000 more expensive than the loaded AWD Element we got.

[Mitlov]

For what it's worth, this is more the sort of stuff we were looking to do than the serious off-roading that you can do in an XTerra (or Wrangler, etc):

http://www.elementownersclub.com/for...ad.php?t=54539

[Blind_Io]

You and I have very different ideas about what "off road" means. I'm sure the Element would have been able to do 99% of the stuff I did on Saturday (barring the detour to play in the mud, and possibly the steep snowy ascent). But I guarantee that you would have needed a suspension overhaul after the drive on the graded Pony Express Route.

How often do these "off road" Elements go through their struts?
After looking around their forum it seems that it's not uncommon for these off road Element drivers to get in over their heads and have to get pulled out. It also seems that they tend to break their bodywork.

The Element is made for street use. It's a lightweight unibody with a re-purposed sedan suspension, engine and transmission. The suspension, body work and gas tank are all vulnerable to damage and it doesn't have any decent tow points.

My advice is to stay on the pavement whenever possible. All it takes is one sharp rock just a bit too high and your gas tank is open like a can of tuna. I'm sure the Element is fine for some slow-speed dirt roads, but it's not built for sustained off road or dirt road driving. Hell, even Honda's truck, the Ridgeline, blows it's shocks on graded fire roads.

Honestly, I'm not sure I would take the Element the places these guys are going, and I certainly would not trust another Element to pull me out if I got stuck, chances are you would damage both vehicles.

[Matt2000]

I looked at that thread but failed to see the off road. Taking an Element over any semi-serious terrain would result in lost of expensive noises and broken bits.

In this situation I would've bought an early Discovery 3. But I would buy a Land Rover of course. The pictures of the Xtrerras looked good though.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

For an "off-road" picture thread, there sure were a lot of roads.

[Mitlov]

For an "off-road" picture thread, there sure were a lot of roads.

Call it what you want; it's just semantics in the end. Some people use the term to mean "rock-scrambling" and the like; some use it for anything that's off-pavement. The fact is, the sorts of areas the Element owners were going is the sort of thing that we're going to do with young kids. We're not going to do what Blind_Io means when he says "off-roading" with a three-year-old in the back seat. I'm going to start using the term "soft-roading" to describe what we want to do to try to avoid future misunderstandings.

Blind_Io, I don't know how often those Element owners blow their struts, but if it was a regular problem, you'd expect people to be complaining about it regularly in the "off the beaten path" forum. In the past six months on that forum, though, a blown strut has only been mentioned once, and it wasn't on an Element (someone said that you shouldn't go up Black Gap Road in Big Bend National Park in an Element because he knew someone who blew a Dodge Ram's strut on the road). If you treat an Element like a Wrangler or XTerra, you're going to have some real problems real quick, but it sounds like if you are realistic about its soft-road capabilities, suspension failures aren't a regular problem.

And matt2000, we're not getting an Land Rover when two of the criteria for our purchase were cheap and reliable.

[Matt2000]

^You can think what you like about the reliability, it's probably not true.

I'm not saying you bought the wrong thing though, I like your Element.

[British_Rover]

This thread made me start thinking of this thread again...

http://forums.finalgear.com/automoti...-engine-40649/

SO I called up our Dodge parts department, we don't have a new Jeep dealership, and finally asked them to check on the price for that 4.7 liter crate motor.
It is kind of the end of the day though and my guy couldn't find that crate motor in his 2010 performance catalog. Some of the other new crate engines are in there but not that one.

I didn't have a part number for him so he couldn't look it up directly.

I have the part number now but everyone is busy so I can't get through.

Part number is P5155210 and a couple of different sources have said the price will be $4,690 which is kind of high IMO but I want our parts department to check.

New Jeep “4.7L Stroker” Long Block Engine Assembly*

This long block engine assembly includes 4.0L engine block and ported cylinder head, new 3.90 stroke crankshaft, OE rods, new forged dished 21 cc pistons, camshaft, lifters, stamped steel rocker arms, valve springs, pushrods, timing chain, timing gears, high-volume oil pump and pickup.
• 1991–1998 P5155209
• 1999–2006 P5155210

*January Availability

http://www.moparmagazine.com/2009/no...e_engines.html

You can buy a mid mileage 2003 or 2004 Grand Cherokee for 10k-12k so even if the crate motor is $4,700 bucks even after installation you would be well under 20,000. You could throw a trans rebuild with shift in plus a mild lift kit and still be under $20,000.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

I'd stick the 4.7 I6 in a late-year XJ, but that's just me. If you wanted a Grand, for the price of that engine alone you could almost buy a whole '98 5.9 and have more power, or put some goodies into the '04's 4.7 V8. Any of those options would be loads of fun.

[Mitlov]

You can buy a mid mileage 2003 or 2004 Grand Cherokee for 10k-12k so even if the crate motor is $4,700 bucks even after installation you would be well under 20,000. You could throw a trans rebuild with shift in plus a mild lift kit and still be under $20,000.

Those are the JGCs that the NHTSA is investigating for fuel tank fires allegedly linked to 254 deaths (about 15 times as many deaths as Toyota unintended acceleration has caused).

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/12/n...-cherokee-ove/

If someone wants to do that to get a really really capable off-road vehicle at a low price, great, but it's not a good solution for someone like my wife who is selling her Toyota because of safety issues.

[British_Rover]

I'd stick the 4.7 I6 in a late-year XJ, but that's just me. If you wanted a Grand, for the price of that engine alone you could almost buy a whole '98 5.9 and have more power, or put some goodies into the '04's 4.7 V8. Any of those options would be loads of fun.

Yeah an XJ would be more fun but ZJs do have a bit more room and are a little bit nicer. I really dislike the 5.9 so would never do that the 4.7 is ok I guess. Just prefer that inline six.

Those are the JGCs that the NHTSA is investigating for fuel tank fires allegedly linked to 254 deaths (about 15 times as many deaths as Toyota unintended acceleration has caused).

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/12/n...-cherokee-ove/

If someone wants to do that to get a really really capable off-road vehicle at a low price, great, but it's not a good solution for someone like my wife who is selling her Toyota because of safety issues.

I have one of those Jeeps, a 1998 actually, and frankly I am not worried. My son is in that car all the time and I have checked out the back everything looks good. Then I am not a woman and safety/fear of being stranded are typically the number two fears a woman has about driving right behind being car jacked.

^You can think what you like about the reliability, it's probably not true.

I'm not saying you bought the wrong thing though, I like your Element.

As good as the newer rovers are they are not Honda reliable and they never will be. They are too complicated. You can't make a vehicle with that many systems as reliable as a basic Honda. Going back to what I said above I sell cars and being stranded having serious problems with the car is typically the number two fear of a woman driver. They may have other concerns like visiblity, comfort driving but for actually fear it is being stranded somewhere car broken down safety related stuff.

[zookiemike]

If someone wants to do that to get a really really capable off-road vehicle at a low price, great, but it's not a good solution for someone like my wife who is selling her Toyota because of safety issues.

What safety issues do Taco trucks have?

[Mitlov]

What safety issues do Taco trucks have?

Speaking specifically about the 2007 Tacoma, which he had, it got a "marginal" roof crush test from the IIHS...that was just announced last week. Dramatically worse than the Frontier and also worse than the Dakota and the Ranger...not to mention the vast majority of unibody vehicles.

Also:

At least one safety expert feels NHTSA should have investigated electronic issues long ago. Sean Kane, president of Safety Research Strategies, said in a recent interview that "by all appearances, electronics are playing a significant role in the problems." Kane says 2002–2006 Camry and 2005–2007 Tacoma models should specifically be investigated

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/03/t...-nhtsa-report/

I checked NHTSA complaints about the 2007 Tacoma, which Toyota is not recalling and where Toyota insists nothing is wrong besides the floor mat. It had about 120 complaints (per capita, 50-60% as many as the recalled Camries and about five times as many per capita as most cars), the vast majority of which are unintended accleration.