How "road safety" makes us less safe

Kat will now comment on the MASS current driving schools

prizrak said:
1) Mandatory driving school. As it stands now in most states you don't have to go to driving school to take your test.
anyone over 18 doesn't have to, they can for a reduction in insurance but i'm not sure it's worth it

2) Take students on highways!!!! Basically all you get taught here is how to parallel park, do a 3 point turn, figure out the right of way. Well that's it really, every school I have ever seen doesn't even have a manual car for training.
We get taken on the highway, but only one exit without changing lanes
Also, I do not know how to parallel park (they removed this) and no clue on a manual. Seriously, will some one teach me? Anyone located near boston? I'd like to know this all the good cars are manuals :(

3) Defensive driving, here it's an OPTIONAL course that you can take to lower your insurance.
Also most programs they offer are ripoffs, HUGE money and you don't learn anything that you wouldn't in the first year of driving in the real world. The real ones are even more money, and are usually far away.

4) Skid recovery, not taught period.
Yes, I go slow in he rain and pray

5) Accident avoidance/emergency handling, not taught.
This would have been useful. 2 month seriously, If I hadn't had my belt on I'd be dead.

6) Adverse conditions driving (at least rain, easy enough to make a skid pad), not taught.
I say defiantly snow in areas like mine where whiteouts can happen from nowhere

7) A real driving test, my driving test consisted of - parallel parking, 3 point turn, couple of rights, couple of lefts some of the turns were from stop lights, couple from stop signs. That is it...
we don't have real parallel parking, just pull up behind a car straight test :/

8) Basic racing theory. I agree that ones a bit out there but in my opinion if you at least know the theory of fast driving you will be a better driver.
yes, defiantly, I think most speed related accidents with teenagers is due to them going faster than they can control the car at. I'm not an idiot, I know exactly where that point is and I hit the break when I feel that.
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Also I would like to add MA just added more hours of "observation" onto their course
this consists of sitting in the backseat where you can't see while the other kids drive and listen to the instructor scream.
I say cut alllll of that shit.
 
I have a better idea - make everyone ride motorcycles for two years before they can get a car license.

That way, the stupid will weed themselves out and we'll have a better pool of drivers.
 
Spectre said:
I have a better idea - make everyone ride motorcycles for two years before they can get a car license.

That way, the stupid will weed themselves out and we'll have a better pool of drivers.
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Seconded, the only problem is that they will end up crashing into us :(
 
katwalk said:
Kat will now comment on the MASS current driving schools
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So long as they're generous with trading in out-of-state licences, that's fine with me, at least until the first accident. Where in MA is Kat located, btw?
 
My driving test a few weeks ago consisted of a normal drive with backing into a parking spot, that's it. :?
 
Labcoatguy said:
So long as they're generous with trading in out-of-state licences, that's fine with me, at least until the first accident. Where in MA is Kat located, btw?
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9 miles north of boston
 
Spectre said:
I have a better idea - make everyone ride motorcycles for two years before they can get a car license.

That way, the stupid will weed themselves out and we'll have a better pool of drivers.
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:lol: Actually that might not be such a bad idea, and not only for the weeding-out aspect. Riding a motorcycle teaches you to pay closer attention to your surroundings and look further down the road than the standard 3cm most drivers seem to use.
 
The following numbers from the year 2006 indicate the number of deaths in car accidents in different countries per 1 million driven kilometers on motorways:

USA: 5.01
Belgium: 4.78
Austria: 4.17
Japan: 3.33
Germany: 2.97
France: 2.60

In other words: The most dangerous traffic conditions (Pure chaos in France and no general speed limit in Germany) result in less deaths.

In Denmark the speed limit was raised from 110 km/h to 130 km/h on half of the motorways and in the following year the number of deaths in car accidents was cut in half!

It proves the author of the article right and it also confirms my own experiences with driving in Europe and in the USA.

It has to have something to do with traffic awareness, I have no other explanation for it.

P.S. The numbers come from the international IRTAD database. Here's a nice link: http://cemt.org/IRTAD/IRTADPublic/we2.html
 
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prizrak said:
Seconded, the only problem is that they will end up crashing into us :(
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Mmm, Motorcycle=usually no more then 1/4 the weight of a car. Hell even if you crashed a decked out harley with some fat people on it into my VW rabbit I would still have about 3 times the mass on my side.


MacGuffin said:
The following numbers from the year 2006 indicate the number of deaths in car accidents in different countries per 1 million driven kilometers on motorways:

USA: 5.01
Belgium: 4.78
Austria: 4.17
Japan: 3.33
Germany: 2.97
France: 2.60

In other words: The most dangerous traffic conditions (Pure chaos in France and no general speed limit in Germany) result in less deaths.

In Denmark the speed limit was raised from 110 km/h to 130 km/h on half of the motorways and in the following year the number of deaths in car accidents was cut in half!

It proves the author of the article right and it also confirms my own experiences with driving in Europe and in the USA.

It has to have something to do with traffic awareness, I have no other explanation for it.
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Or inversely you could show how a recent rise in speed enforcement has corresponded with a raise in deaths (not seen for years) in both France, England, and Austrailia (northern provinces i believe) Austrailia is neat in particular because once they implemented a speed limit (somebody remind me which provense that was) their death rate went up about 10%.

I personally think if you rid the roads of speed limits (or atleast of the more unreasonable enforcement of limits) you would have about a 2 year adjustment period and after that the deaths per mile would go down again. I think the key is to make people aware of the fact that they ARE engaging in a dangerous act everytime they drive, and thus limiting themselves just enough to avoid accedents, but not so much that they would feel the need to take theirs eyes off the road and eat a burger or talk on the cell.

PS to the Germans: I have heard that the cops have recently started being really of cruel towards speeders on any stretch of road that isn't unlimited, how true is this, and can you still have a reasonably quick drive on a stretch through the schwarzwald, or will you be branded a lunatic?
 
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MacGuffin said:
The following numbers from the year 2006 indicate the number of deaths in car accidents in different countries per 1 million driven kilometers on motorways:

USA: 5.01
Belgium: 4.78
Austria: 4.17
Japan: 3.33
Germany: 2.97
France: 2.60

In other words: The most dangerous traffic conditions (Pure chaos in France and no general speed limit in Germany) result in less deaths.

In Denmark the speed limit was raised from 110 km/h to 130 km/h on half of the motorways and in the following year the number of deaths in car accidents was cut in half!

It proves the author of the article right and it also confirms my own experiences with driving in Europe and in the USA.

It has to have something to do with traffic awareness, I have no other explanation for it.
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Actually, that's not the real problem. The real problem has to do with inadequate driver training, as others have noted.

It is easier to get a driver's license in the US than it is in some African countries. The driver's exam written test can be passed by a 12 year old, and the practical examiners are lazy government employees who only care that you can go around a block without crashing and, depending on state, parallel park.

In addition, drunk driving laws are ludicrously lax and punishment is often delayed by years, in which time the drunk driver racks up more offenses.

Finally, truly dangerous driving (failure to pay attention - applying makeup, reading the news while driving, etc.) is often punished with nothing more but wrist slaps (if anything) while something like simply speeding in a deserted area is rewarded with excessive fines and jail time.

That's the major problems. Not the signage or safety features per se (though there are problems with those, too - ask me about the idiocy that is the "better looking" 'Jersey barrier') as I've driven in Europe and a lot of your signage and road design *is* clearly inferior to some US roads. Our maintenance is worse, though.
 
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Ottobon said:
PS to the Germans: I have heard that the cops have recently started being really of cruel towards speeders on any stretch of road that isn't unlimited, how true is this, and can you still have a reasonably quick drive on a stretch through the schwarzwald, or will you be branded a lunatic?
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Well, I live on the opposite side of the country, so I have no idea what's going on in the Schwarzwald but when you exceed the speed limit here, you have to reckon that you might get caught in a radar trap.

To give you an orientation, here's what you get for speeding in Germany:

bussgelder.jpg


1 = If visibility was below 50 meters
2 = If it's the second time within 12 months you exceed the speed limit for at least 26 km/h


The fines for speeding are still very moderate here in Germany, compared to other countries, but they are planning on raising them. The table above can, however, be ignored in court, and you can get punished more than that, if the judge thinks you have deserved it, for example by being extremely reckless and undiscerning.
 
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Mmm, Motorcycle=usually no more then 1/4 the weight of a car. Hell even if you crashed a decked out harley with some fat people on it into my VW rabbit I would still have about 3 times the mass on my side.
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The amount of energy involved is dependant on speed as well as mass. So a bike crashing into a car at 60MPH will cause quite a bit of damage. That being said even a small dent on my car is mortifying :(
The driver's exam written test can be passed by a 12 year old,
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By a RETARDED 12 year old. Not sure how it works in other states but here in NY a good number of questions on the test asks you about signs. The signs and their explanation are taped to the each desk in the exam room....

The rest of the questions are basically common sense. Something along the lines of "if you want to stop do you:
a) press the gas pedal
b) press the brake pedal
c) smash into the object in front of you
"
Seriously...
 
Spectre said:
http://www.ehow.com/video_1872_parallel-park.html
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I tried to parallel park the morning I was going to take my driving test and wasn't able to but if the damn spot was that big I would easily been able to get in. The spots here in town are way to short for anything to parallel park that's longer than a Mini. :lol:

My Dad said I failed it because he said your only allowed to pull straight forward when you pull up in the spot, I could have gotten in the spot if I had turned been able to turn to the right when pulling up as shown in that video.
 
MacGuffin said:
The fines for speeding are still very moderate here in Germany, compared to other countries, but they are planning on raising them. The table above can, however, be ignored in court, and you can get punished more than that, if the judge thinks you have deserved it, for example by being extremely reckless and undiscerning.
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Here's a small example of what fines are like here in Texas, which is pretty much in line with other states, to give you an idea of how screwed up our driving enforcement is.


Fine for going up to 10mph over the posted speed limit: $135.
Fine for going up to 16mph over the posted speed limit (not hard to do in West Texas): $165
Fine for RUNNING A RED LIGHT: $165.
Fine for passing a school bus that is loading or unloading children (with flashing lights going): $1090.

Now, I agree with the fine for passing un/loading school buses - we've had entirely too many kids killed by idiots - but IMHO, the fine for blowing a red light should be equally draconian.
 
The first time I ever attempted to parallel park was during my driving test. :lol:

I didn't know it was a requirement. But luckily, you're allowed to scrape the curb, just as long as you don't drive over it. So I just had to avoid bumping the cones. Which wasn't as easy in my mom's Blazer, then it would have been in my S10. :p But I didn't want to take my test with a manual.

But yeah, the test was ridiculously easy. Stop at a stop sign, a red light, drive through a neighborhood, a school zone, and you're done. Takes 5 minutes tops.

Driver Training is great and all, but I don't think it'll make the biggest difference. We should make drivers ed in school a requirement and make the tests harder, but you can't ever replace first hand experience.
 
Spectre said:
http://www.ehow.com/video_1872_parallel-park.html
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That video is borderline useless. They avoid the important questions when parallel parking, like when you start turning the wheel left and right. Then, the girl in the vid ends up way too far off the curbstone. And they forget to talk about the little messes you can make when parking parallel, like a crash you can have with a car that passes you when you turn the wheel right, because the front of your car will swivel out onto the road.
 
When I was doing my driving test, it was 1984 and I was in a Golf Mk I :) So parallel parking was easy, because you could see very well the ends of the car.

It was also easy with my first 4 cars, which were 70's and 80's models that weren't styled only in a wind tunnel.

With my Golf IV, though, and most other modern cars, parallel parking is more like a guessing game, because the bonnets are sloped and the rear view is obscured. It's a thing our biggest motor club, the ADAC, is always critizing when testing cars but I guess it won't ever help. The biggest trouble I ever had with parallel parking, was with a current 5-series. A nightmare. Better buy the estate versions, because that really helps.

Thank God for parking sensors and electric side mirrors that can be pointed downwards :)
 
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