Can someone explain to me why anyone wants to vote for McCain/Palin?

Biden is being awful aggressive. Still being twisty and manipulative. Palin is being a bit more straightforward and just answering the questions.
 
From all the VP debates I watched this morning on CSPAN, the passive factual VP always wins. I think the shouty old man wins the hearts at the outset, but unfortunately people realize in retrospect what a jackass he is.
 
By the way, has anyone noticed how all the 'fact checks' on CNN.com exculpate Obama?
 
Firecat said:
Speaking about assassination and Palin...the leader of Pakistan has found him self in a little trouble.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/CSM/story?id=5932509&page=1
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But are those people you would want happy with you? Idiot clerics like that one need to realize that there is more to the world and culture than 4th Islamic warlord legends... and respect it!

optimusprime said:
By the way, has anyone noticed how all the 'fact checks' on CNN.com exculpate Obama?
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No, you don't say! :lol:
 
Shawn said:
Yes, I am... and I feel horrible because I always laugh at Canadians who follow US politics very closely but have no idea of the politics of their own country.

Anyway, it's a boring debate... they're being too nice to each other. Palin is doing better than expected by me, just wish she would stop saying Eye-raq... it's E-raq you ignorant bitch.

Edit: Now here she goes with Eye-ran... and she pronounces nuclear like Homer Simpson and George W. (nukeyooler).
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I missed the first half, but I'll bet that Biden was dishonest at least a few times. I'll read the transcript to be sure, but old habits die hard.

So what's more important to you, someone who pronounces foreign countries the same way people in your geographic corner of the world do, or someone who is more honest?
 
I have some work to do and no time to go into more detail. But I don't think Biden had a chance to win this debate. It was for Palin to win or lose.

And I think she won. She exceeded expectations (which were low) but she was so much more refreshing and interesting than Joe Biden. That shouldn't really mean much, but neither of them had much substance so what else is there to judge?
 
Well if you didn't know Sarah Palin was governor of Alaska before the debate started you would have soon found out. Good grief did she need to mention that fact every five minutes?

As far as the actual debate goes I was blown away by Biden. He responded to the questions with hard facts while Palin went off onto tangents about bi-partisan politics and stuff like that. He also looked much more confident throughout the whole thing. Palin spent most of the time looking down at the podium or somewhere other than at her opponent, the moderator, or the camera.

But I think what struck me the most were the responses to how they would carry on if something should happen to the president. Biden made it pretty clear that he would carry on as best he could in Obama's footsteps. Palin, on the other hand, made it seem like she would start doing things her way. Kinda scary.
 
Hard facts?
 
^ Stuff like how much money in tax breaks the oil companies received, how many people will be dropped from their healthcare plans if McCain's credit passes, how many times Obama and McCain voted for or against certain issues, etc.
 
WASHINGTON - Facts went adrift on taxes, deregulation and more Thursday when Republican Sarah Palin and Democrat Joe Biden clashed in the vice presidential debate.

Some examples:

PALIN: Said of Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama: "94 times he voted to increase taxes or not support a tax reduction."

THE FACTS: The dubious count includes repetitive votes as well as votes to cut taxes for the middle class while raising them on the rich. An analysis by factcheck.org found that 23 of the votes were for measures that would have produced no tax increase at all, seven were in favor of measures that would have lowered taxes for many, 11 would have increased taxes on only those making more than $1 million a year.

___

BIDEN: Complained about "economic policies of the last eight years" that led to "excessive deregulation."

THE FACTS: Biden voted for 1999 deregulation that liberal groups are blaming for part of the financial crisis. The law allowed Wall Street investment banks to create the kind of mortgage-related securities at the core of the problem now. The law was widely backed by Republicans as well as by Democratic President Clinton, who argues it has stopped the crisis today from being worse.

___

PALIN: "Two years ago, remember, it was John McCain who pushed so hard with the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac reform measures. He sounded that warning bell."

THE FACTS: Republican Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska led an effort in 2005 to tighten regulation on the mortgage underwriters ? McCain joined as a co-sponsor a year later. The legislation was never taken up by the full Senate, then under Republican control.

___

BIDEN: Warned that Republican presidential candidate John McCain's $5,000 tax credit to help families buy health coverage "will go straight to the insurance company."

THE FACTS: Of course it would, because it's meant to pay for insurance. That's like saying money for a car loan will go straight to the car dealer.

___

PALIN: "We cannot afford to lose against al-Qaida and the Shia extremists who are still there, still fighting us."

THE FACTS: She appeared to confuse the two main Muslim sects in Iraq. Al-Qaida is solely made up of Sunni Muslim militants. Through the course of the war, U.S. forces fought ferocious opposition from both the Sunnis and the country's dominant Shiite sects. Now, both groups are largely maintaining a cease-fire with the U.S. A much-diminished al-Qaida, mainly foreign fighters, remains the primary threat.

___

BIDEN: Said McCain supports tax breaks for oil companies, and "wants to give them another $4 billion tax cut."

THE FACTS: Biden is repeating a favorite saw of the Obama campaign, and it's misleading. McCain supports a cut in income taxes for all corporations, and doesn't single out any one industry for that benefit.

___

PALIN: Said the United States has reduced its troop level in Iraq to a number below where it was when the troop increase began in early 2007.

THE FACTS: Not correct. The Pentagon says there are currently 152,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, about 17,000 more than there were before the 2007 military buildup began.

___

BIDEN: "As a matter of fact, John recently wrote an article in a major magazine saying that he wants to do for the health care industry ? deregulate it and let the free market move ? like he did for the banking industry."

THE FACTS: Biden and Obama have been perpetuating this distortion of what McCain wrote in an article for the American Academy of Actuaries. McCain, laying out his health plan, only referred to deregulation when saying people should be allowed to buy health insurance across state lines. In that context, he wrote: "Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation."

___

PALIN: Said Alaska is "building a nearly $40 billion natural gas pipeline, which is North America's largest and most expensive infrastructure project ever to flow those sources of energy into hungry markets."

THE FACTS: Not quite. Construction is at least six years away. So far the state has only awarded a license to Trans Canada Corp., that comes with $500 million in seed money in exchange for commitments toward a lengthy and costly process to getting a federal certificate. At an August news conference after the state Legislature approved the license, Palin said, "It's not a done deal."

___

PALIN: "Barack Obama even supported increasing taxes as late as last year for those families making only $42,000 a year."

BIDEN: "The charge is absolutely not true. Barack Obama did not vote to raise taxes. The vote she's referring to, John McCain voted the exact same way."

THE FACTS: The vote was on a nonbinding budget resolution that assumed that President Bush's tax cuts would expire, as scheduled, in 2011. If that actually happened, it could mean higher taxes for people making as little as about $42,000. But Obama is proposing tax increases only on the wealthy, and would cut taxes for most others. In the March 14 budget resolution supported by Obama and Biden, McCain actually did not vote.

___

PALIN: Said a McCain-Palin administration "will support Israel," including "building our embassy ... in Jerusalem."

THE FACTS: Moving the U.S. Embassy from its present location in Tel Aviv to Jerusalem is a perennial promise of presidential candidates courting the Jewish-American vote. In fact, moving the embassy is actually required by U.S. law. But successive administrations of both parties, including President Bush's, have made the same pledge only to find that the realities of Middle East peacemaking have forced them to invoke a waiver to delay it. Jerusalem is claimed as a capital by both Israel and the Palestinians, and Israel's occupation of east Jerusalem is not internationally recognized. The city's status is a key issue of disagreement in peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/debate_fact_check
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KaJuN said:
As far as the actual debate goes I was blown away by Biden. He responded to the questions with hard facts while Palin went off onto tangents about bi-partisan politics and stuff like that.
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Hard facts, perhaps, but not necessarily accurate facts... :lol:

http://minx.cc/?post=274757

JOE BIDEN?S 14 LIES TONIGHT


1. TAX VOTE: Biden said McCain voted ?the exact same way? as Obama to increase taxes on Americans earning just $42,000, but McCain DID NOT VOTE THAT WAY.


2. AHMEDINIJAD MEETING: Joe Biden lied when he said that Barack Obama never said that he would sit down unconditionally with Mahmoud Ahmedinijad of Iran. Barack Obama did say specifically, and Joe Biden attacked him for it.


3. OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING: Biden said, ?Drill we must.? But Biden has opposed offshore drilling and even compared offshore drilling to ?raping? the Outer Continental Shelf.?


4. TROOP FUNDING: Joe Biden lied when he indicated that John McCain and Barack Obama voted the same way against funding the troops in the field. John McCain opposed a bill that included a timeline, that the President of the United States had already said he would veto regardless of it?s passage.


5. OPPOSING CLEAN COAL: Biden says he?s always been for clean coal, but he just told a voter that he is against clean coal and any new coal plants in America and has a record of voting against clean coal and coal in the U.S. Senate.


6. ALERNATIVE ENERGY VOTES: According to FactCheck.org, Biden is exaggerating and overstating John McCain?s record voting for alternative energy when he says he voted against it 23 times.


7. HEALTH INSURANCE: Biden falsely said McCain will raise taxes on people's health insurance coverage -- they get a tax credit to offset any tax hike. Independent fact checkers have confirmed this attack is false


8. OIL TAXES: Biden falsely said Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska -- she reformed the state tax and revenue system, it's not a windfall profits tax.


9. AFGHANISTAN / GEN. MCKIERNAN COMMENTS: Biden said that top military commander in Iraq said the principles of the surge could not be applied to Afghanistan, but the commander of NATO's International Security Assistance Force Gen. David D. McKiernan said that there were principles of the surge strategy, including working with tribes, that could be applied in Afghanistan.


10. REGULATION: Biden falsely said McCain weakened regulation -- he actually called for more regulation on Fannie and Freddie.


11. IRAQ: When Joe Biden lied when he said that John McCain was ?dead wrong on Iraq?, because Joe Biden shared the same vote to authorize the war and differed on the surge strategy where they John McCain has been proven right.


12. TAX INCREASES: Biden said Americans earning less than $250,000 wouldn?t see higher taxes, but the Obama-Biden tax plan would raise taxes on individuals making $200,000 or more.


13. BAILOUT: Biden said the economic rescue legislation matches the four principles that Obama laid out, but in reality it doesn?t meet two of the four principles that Obama outlined on Sept. 19, which were that it include an emergency economic stimulus package, and that it be part of ?part of a globally coordinated effort with our partners in the G-20.?


14. REAGAN TAX RATES: Biden is wrong in saying that under Obama, Americans won't pay any more in taxes then they did under Reagan.
 
Censport said:
I missed the first half, but I'll bet that Biden was dishonest at least a few times. I'll read the transcript to be sure, but old habits die hard.

So what's more important to you, someone who pronounces foreign countries the same way people in your geographic corner of the world do, or someone who is more honest?
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I wrote that reply as I was watching the debate... the pronunciation isn't a big deal for me, just that I was watching the foreign policy segment of the debate at that point in time.

But yes, I would have a lot more confidence in the foreign affairs expertise of a political candidate if they could at least pronounce the names of countries properly. It doesn't matter where you live, those pronunciations are wrong. When Italy becomes Eye-taly, I will accept Eye-raq and Eye-ran as correct pronunciations.

And why do you guys always need to make a comparison? Is it wrong to judge Palin separate of Biden? I'm not an American citizen so I don't have to decide between the two... I don't like Biden either, but this thread is about Sarah Palin and John McCain. Please, can we stop resorting to "but Biden is so much worse" argument whenever a point of criticism is brought up about Palin?
 
Shawn said:
But yes, I would have a lot more confidence in the foreign affairs expertise of a political candidate if they could at least pronounce the names of countries properly. It doesn't matter where you live, those pronunciations are wrong. When Italy becomes Eye-taly, I will accept Eye-raq and Eye-ran as correct pronunciations.
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I base my confidence more on someone's decisions rather than their dialect. Obama, Mr. "New and Different Kind of Politics", Mr. "Change", brought Biden on board because of his foreign policy experience, right? But how often has Biden's foreign policy decision proven to be right? Pretty damn rare, as it turns out:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28830

And why do you guys always need to make a comparison? Is it wrong to judge Palin separate of Biden? I'm not an American citizen so I don't have to decide between the two... I don't like Biden either, but this thread is about Sarah Palin and John McCain. Please, can we stop resorting to "but Biden is so much worse" argument whenever a point of criticism is brought up about Palin?
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Why? Because Americans are choosing between TWO major parties, that's why. I know you don't like it, I know you would like to see our system more like some countries in Europe or whatever, but the fact of the matter is that Palin and McCain are running against Biden and Obama. There are other options, as we've noted, and they might make a difference in a close state, but the stars of the shows are representatives for TWO parties.

But hey, some people can't mention McCain or Palin without trying to connect them to Bush and Cheney (or something really stupid, like linking McCain to Rush Limbaugh, as in one of Obama's ads).
 
I normally stay out of discussions like this because I don't have a whole lot of time to sit around and defend my views. I do think this needs to be tossed out here.

un-dee said:
Eh? And you can't go to court about a public matter or what?
Apart from that, I don't think you have a clue how centralized health care works in most countries. Here you have the public insurers which are mandatory for all people with an income below a certain level, they provide all basic medical coverage and are funded through a percentage based portion of your paycheck. (With a maximum limit). If you don't like that you can still go and insure yourself with a private insurer, you can have the contract you want and pay as much as they want to charge you. So where's the big problem?
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Part of the reason why Americans don't want government-run healthcare is because many, many, many people have a pretty good firsthand idea of how it would work in the US from the disaster that was (and still is, sometimes) the Veterans Administration. This is where ex-military members are supposed to be able to go for care. It is fully administered by the government.

Let me put to you this way. In the 70s and early 80s, before Reagan purged them and cleaned them up, there were more sanitary and advanced hospitals in the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact than some of the big VA hospitals. You had less of a chance of dying there than in, say, the Los Angeles area VA facility in 1979.

It wasn't always that way. It started off in the 50s as the bright shiny jewel in the US healthcare crown. Well administered, well-run, most advanced care, etc., etc... but it went into decline and became truly horrible. That's pretty much what happens to *any* US bureaucracy until someone flushes it out. (I have personal experience with the VA - my father is a Vietnam veteran, partially disabled, and I got to watch the disaster that was the VA in action.) It became so bad that penniless vets would beg borrow or steal money to seek care outside the VA. Why? Because the VA would usually summarily deny you, and even if they didn't, well, the VA had become the place you went to *die*, despite the "free" care.

And now the US Healthcare-By-Government advocates want us to adopt the British or Canadian systems - both of which are both visibly collapsing, both of which have no real right of appeal, and both of which send patients *here* to the US after denying them care there. See "medical tourism". The British and Canadian systems both resembled the old VA to a surprising and frightening degree... and is NOTHING I or others want to see come to the US.

I had an alternative solution, and it's *sort* of been tried out in California - but like most other things in California they somehow managed to make it into a total failure. So I won't mention it here.

Edit: I should add this - I am not at ALL happy with either of the candidates at this time.
 
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Censport said:
Why? Because Americans are choosing between TWO major parties, that's why. I know you don't like it, I know you would like to see our system more like some countries in Europe or whatever, but the fact of the matter is that Palin and McCain are running against Biden and Obama. There are other options, as we've noted, and they might make a difference in a close state, but the stars of the shows are representatives for TWO parties.
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I can see why you got this impression from me, but I never meant to get in the discussion of what political system is superior.

I am just saying that you Republican supporters are not willing to allow any questioning of Palin's experience and expertise because Biden is a liar whose facts aren't very factual... or something like that.

You don't see any problem with being so quick to judge opponents, while you cannot look at your own people you support objectively?

Look, I understand Americans are faced with a hard choice come November, but it still doesn't change the fact that the only reason you guys are tooting Palin's horn is because she's the un-Biden... oh, and that she cut pork barrel spending in Alaska during her tenure as Governor.

Just look at jetsetter, he's not even willing to use his own words to discuss the matter at hand. Whatever we say about Palin, he just offers up an article on why Biden is a conniving son of a bitch as a rebuttal. You don't make a strong case for the GOP by citing not being Biden as Sarah Palin's biggest political virtue and achievement.
 
Twerp128 said:
Biden is being awful aggressive. Still being twisty and manipulative. Palin is being a bit more straightforward and just answering the questions.
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.....:lmao:

That's absurd. Were you even watching the same debate as me? Palin didn't answer a single question without a slogan and most of them were inappropriate for the moment.
 
Still, IMO Sarah Palin is simply not the "presidential" material, only judging by interviews, her speeches and yesterday's debate.

I know, she is the one McCain chose, i know, that if you want McCain to be president you have to vote for her anyway as a "package" deal, but please don't lie to yourselves, she is by no means a good vice presidential choice.

I seriously cannot imaging how a person after overlooking all the achievements of Biden and Palin, positions on key issues, experience, speeches (all the stuff prior to the election) can seriously suggest that she is the better candidate for Vice president. Maybe ppl don't get, that the election is a job interview, and, at this very point in time Americans are interested in the ppl the most capable of doing the job, which are neither candidates btw (IMO).

MSNBC website poll (Who won the debate) - 78.6% Biden, 18.9% Palin, 2.5% Tie. Totally over 100.000 votes.
 
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Censport said:
Barack Obama did say specifically, and Joe Biden attacked him for it.
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This is why I don't like the idea of primary losers becoming VP candidates: one minute, he's giving decisively negative speeches about how Obama is an empty suit and not ready to lead, then the next he's openly fellating Obama's ego.
 
Shawn said:
I am just saying that you Republican supporters are not willing to allow any questioning of Palin's experience and expertise because Biden is a liar whose facts aren't very factual... or something like that.

You don't see any problem with being so quick to judge opponents, while you cannot look at your own people you support objectively?
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I can look at my own candidates objectively, but I keep it in the context of the race. If I don't support one team, the other team wins by default. "All that is necessary..." I believe the saying goes. But the criticisms you bring up are hardly substantive. If you don't like a candidate, make sure it's for their policy, their history of past decisions, their integrity, their plans for America (or Canada), something that is actually job-related. Get wrapped up in their accents or dialects, and a habitual liar like Biden (or Obama) can sneak into office.

Look, I understand Americans are faced with a hard choice come November, but it still doesn't change the fact that the only reason you guys are tooting Palin's horn is because she's the un-Biden... oh, and that she cut pork barrel spending in Alaska during her tenure as Governor.
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It's not a hard choice. Either you want America's rich to have their income confiscated by the government to pay for programs that make your life more comfortable, or you want government to reduce spending on vote-buying programs and "entitlements" and free up capital that supports industry.
 
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