The "American Leyland" News Thread

Goodbye, GM ...by Michael Moore

I write this on the morning of the end of the once-mighty General Motors. By high noon, the President of the United States will have made it official: General Motors, as we know it, has been totaled.

As I sit here in GM's birthplace, Flint, Michigan, I am surrounded by friends and family who are filled with anxiety about what will happen to them and to the town. Forty percent of the homes and businesses in the city have been abandoned. Imagine what it would be like if you lived in a city where almost every other house is empty. What would be your state of mind?

It is with sad irony that the company which invented "planned obsolescence" -- the decision to build cars that would fall apart after a few years so that the customer would then have to buy a new one -- has now made itself obsolete. It refused to build automobiles that the public wanted, cars that got great gas mileage, were as safe as they could be, and were exceedingly comfortable to drive. Oh -- and that wouldn't start falling apart after two years. GM stubbornly fought environmental and safety regulations. Its executives arrogantly ignored the "inferior" Japanese and German cars, cars which would become the gold standard for automobile buyers. And it was hell-bent on punishing its unionized workforce, lopping off thousands of workers for no good reason other than to "improve" the short-term bottom line of the corporation. Beginning in the 1980s, when GM was posting record profits, it moved countless jobs to Mexico and elsewhere, thus destroying the lives of tens of thousands of hard-working Americans. The glaring stupidity of this policy was that, when they eliminated the income of so many middle class families, who did they think was going to be able to afford to buy their cars? History will record this blunder in the same way it now writes about the French building the Maginot Line or how the Romans cluelessly poisoned their own water system with lethal lead in its pipes.

So here we are at the deathbed of General Motors. The company's body not yet cold, and I find myself filled with -- dare I say it -- joy. It is not the joy of revenge against a corporation that ruined my hometown and brought misery, divorce, alcoholism, homelessness, physical and mental debilitation, and drug addiction to the people I grew up with. Nor do I, obviously, claim any joy in knowing that 21,000 more GM workers will be told that they, too, are without a job.

But you and I and the rest of America now own a car company! I know, I know -- who on earth wants to run a car company? Who among us wants $50 billion of our tax dollars thrown down the rat hole of still trying to save GM? Let's be clear about this: The only way to save GM is to kill GM. Saving our precious industrial infrastructure, though, is another matter and must be a top priority. If we allow the shutting down and tearing down of our auto plants, we will sorely wish we still had them when we realize that those factories could have built the alternative energy systems we now desperately need. And when we realize that the best way to transport ourselves is on light rail and bullet trains and cleaner buses, how will we do this if we've allowed our industrial capacity and its skilled workforce to disappear?

Thus, as GM is "reorganized" by the federal government and the bankruptcy court, here is the plan I am asking President Obama to implement for the good of the workers, the GM communities, and the nation as a whole. Twenty years ago when I made "Roger & Me," I tried to warn people about what was ahead for General Motors. Had the power structure and the punditocracy listened, maybe much of this could have been avoided. Based on my track record, I request an honest and sincere consideration of the following suggestions:

1. Just as President Roosevelt did after the attack on Pearl Harbor, the President must tell the nation that we are at war and we must immediately convert our auto factories to factories that build mass transit vehicles and alternative energy devices. Within months in Flint in 1942, GM halted all car production and immediately used the assembly lines to build planes, tanks and machine guns. The conversion took no time at all. Everyone pitched in. The fascists were defeated.

We are now in a different kind of war -- a war that we have conducted against the ecosystem and has been conducted by our very own corporate leaders. This current war has two fronts. One is headquartered in Detroit. The products built in the factories of GM, Ford and Chrysler are some of the greatest weapons of mass destruction responsible for global warming and the melting of our polar icecaps. The things we call "cars" may have been fun to drive, but they are like a million daggers into the heart of Mother Nature. To continue to build them would only lead to the ruin of our species and much of the planet.

The other front in this war is being waged by the oil companies against you and me. They are committed to fleecing us whenever they can, and they have been reckless stewards of the finite amount of oil that is located under the surface of the earth. They know they are sucking it bone dry. And like the lumber tycoons of the early 20th century who didn't give a damn about future generations as they tore down every forest they could get their hands on, these oil barons are not telling the public what they know to be true -- that there are only a few more decades of useable oil on this planet. And as the end days of oil approach us, get ready for some very desperate people willing to kill and be killed just to get their hands on a gallon can of gasoline.

President Obama, now that he has taken control of GM, needs to convert the factories to new and needed uses immediately.

2. Don't put another $30 billion into the coffers of GM to build cars. Instead, use that money to keep the current workforce -- and most of those who have been laid off -- employed so that they can build the new modes of 21st century transportation. Let them start the conversion work now.

3. Announce that we will have bullet trains criss-crossing this country in the next five years. Japan is celebrating the 45th anniversary of its first bullet train this year. Now they have dozens of them. Average speed: 165 mph. Average time a train is late: under 30 seconds. They have had these high speed trains for nearly five decades -- and we don't even have one! The fact that the technology already exists for us to go from New York to L.A. in 17 hours by train, and that we haven't used it, is criminal. Let's hire the unemployed to build the new high speed lines all over the country. Chicago to Detroit in less than two hours. Miami to DC in under 7 hours. Denver to Dallas in five and a half. This can be done and done now.

4. Initiate a program to put light rail mass transit lines in all our large and medium-sized cities. Build those trains in the GM factories. And hire local people everywhere to install and run this system.

5. For people in rural areas not served by the train lines, have the GM plants produce energy efficient clean buses.

6. For the time being, have some factories build hybrid or all-electric cars (and batteries). It will take a few years for people to get used to the new ways to transport ourselves, so if we're going to have automobiles, let's have kinder, gentler ones. We can be building these next month (do not believe anyone who tells you it will take years to retool the factories -- that simply isn't true).

7. Transform some of the empty GM factories to facilities that build windmills, solar panels and other means of alternate forms of energy. We need tens of millions of solar panels right now. And there is an eager and skilled workforce who can build them.

8. Provide tax incentives for those who travel by hybrid car or bus or train. Also, credits for those who convert their home to alternative energy.

9. To help pay for this, impose a two-dollar tax on every gallon of gasoline. This will get people to switch to more energy saving cars or to use the new rail lines and rail cars the former autoworkers have built for them.

Well, that's a start. Please, please, please don't save GM so that a smaller version of it will simply do nothing more than build Chevys or Cadillacs. This is not a long-term solution. Don't throw bad money into a company whose tailpipe is malfunctioning, causing a strange odor to fill the car.

100 years ago this year, the founders of General Motors convinced the world to give up their horses and saddles and buggy whips to try a new form of transportation. Now it is time for us to say goodbye to the internal combustion engine. It seemed to serve us well for so long. We enjoyed the car hops at the A&W. We made out in the front -- and the back -- seat. We watched movies on large outdoor screens, went to the races at NASCAR tracks across the country, and saw the Pacific Ocean for the first time through the window down Hwy. 1. And now it's over. It's a new day and a new century. The President -- and the UAW -- must seize this moment and create a big batch of lemonade from this very sour and sad lemon.

Yesterday, the last surviving person from the Titanic disaster passed away. She escaped certain death that night and went on to live another 97 years.

So can we survive our own Titanic in all the Flint Michigans of this country. 60% of GM is ours. I think we can do a better job.

You have no idea how high my blood pressure went reading this article.
 
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Somebody needs to write a very basic kid's book titled "Mommy, where do jobs come from?"
 
UGG I can't even read the fucking thing all the way. Someone needs to put him in an acid bath.
 

Interesting because this one

How GM Lost Its Way


For half a century, between the 1920s and the 1970s, GM seemed to have an instinctive feel for what Americans wanted before consumers themselves even knew it. Chrome, tail fins, muscle cars and even the first catalytic converters that let cars run on lead-free gasoline were developed at GM.

Though that article is worded poorly as cars weren't "let run on lead-free gas" they had to for cats, and many engines of the time couldn't due to the valve seats. :lol:

After skimming bits of this thread, I've been re-assured that GM will be a government entity, sucking down my tax dollars and providing great healthcare to the UAW members (yet socialized health care is bad) till the day I die... considering I'm only 25 this sucks.
 
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As far as i know, the catalytic converters were developed by GM Europe aka Opel. Being cleaner and more fuel-efficient was one of the E-Kadett's major point of sales against the Golf II (which was superior in any other thinkable way, and yet Opel somehow kept Kadett sales on the same level...).
 
As far as i know, the catalytic converters were developed by GM Europe aka Opel. Being cleaner and more fuel-efficient was one of the E-Kadett's major point of sales against the Golf II (which was superior in any other thinkable way, and yet Opel somehow kept Kadett sales on the same level...).

Erm, no.

From Wikipedia:

The catalytic converter was invented by Eugene Houdry, a French mechanical engineer who lived in the United States. About 1950, when the results of early studies of smog in Los Angeles were published, Houdry became concerned about the role of automobile exhaust in air pollution and founded a special company, Oxy-Catalyst, to develop catalytic converters for gasoline engines - an idea ahead of its time for which he attained a patent (US2742437). But until lead could be eliminated from gasoline (lead was introduced in the 1920s to raise octane levels), it poisoned any catalyst.[1]

The catalytic converter was later on further developed by John J. Mooney and Carl D. Keith at the Engelhard Corporation,[2] creating the first production catalytic converter in 1973.[3]
 
I learn something new every day ^^
 
[five pages of Moore drivel]
I know it's a cliche to hate Moore these days... but for the love of God, will someone stuff a seventies ABA-style striped tube sock down this guy's throat? Everything he says is self-contradictory, short-sighted, illogical, ridiculously arrogant, self-righteous and irritating. Just watch "Bowling for Columbine" or "Sicko" someday and try to avoid throwing things at the screen. Go ahead, I dare you.
 
I know it's a cliche to hate Moore these days... but for the love of God, will someone stuff a seventies ABA-style striped tube sock down this guy's throat? Everything he says is self-contradictory, short-sighted, illogical, ridiculously arrogant, self-righteous and irritating. Just watch "Bowling for Columbine" or "Sicko" someday and try to avoid throwing things at the screen. Go ahead, I dare you.

Dude that's not funny. I lost a monitor like that (watched Bowling for Columbine on my PC)
 
4. Initiate a program to put light rail mass transit lines in all our large and medium-sized cities. Build those trains in the GM factories. And hire local people everywhere to install and run this system

Springfield to Boston hour and half by car four hours by rail
 
I would rather the govenment have some say rather than having no say like when they bailed out the banks.

The government owns 36% of Citibank, just for example.

Banks were forced to take TARP money even when they didn't want it.

This is all about getting government hooks into private enterprise so our Dear Leader can own the means of production and finance.

Well, GM failed, so if the Government fails, what exactly is the difference?

If GM failed, it should have sufferred and gone out of business.

When government fails, the problem is that they didn't get enough money and their budget goes up (and our taxes with it).

Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac, Amtrak, US Post Office... The difference is virtually every government program is a poorly run failure that is never subject to market effects.

As a (former) owner of a Jeep, I laugh at this statement. H2's are not much more than rebodied Chevy Tahoes.

Yeah but as a current owner of a Jeep, at least Hummers come with lockers, air suspensions, and oversized offroad tires. Until the Wrangler Unlimited, Jeeps were all do-it-yourself to make a decent offroader.
 
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I have a question:

In Germany there is a law that says you have to try to make profit, if you want to run a company or firm. You are not allowed to run a company just for fun, because you have too much money or feel generous and only want to give people jobs. You must try to earn money and run the firm economically.

Is that the same in the USA?

Not that I know of -- although there are certain companies that are classified as "not for profits" and are supposed to be charities (although several political groups masquerade as non-profits).

It's left up to the market -- if a company is operating at a loss and it's public, the shareholders will revolt.

Unfortunately for the government-run companies none of this applies.

The government has convinced several generations of Americans that companies do not exist to make a profit for their shareholders -- they exist to provide jobs to the community and provide healthcare and retirement benefits. This largely comes from the minds of ivy-league eggheads who've never run so much as a hot dog stand.

Just because GM will be owned by the government doesn't mean some politician is sitting there designing cars, or that Congress has to approve each year's new models. I don't see how the government can and would do more than restructuring.

The government ALREADY designs cars by means of regulation -- staring with CAFE. The civillian H1 Hummer was taken off the market because it couldn't keep up with new regulations, for example. Do you think ever-stricter emissions and crash standards have no effect on car designs? Do you think mandating 35 mpg by 2016 isn't affecting car design? Now we have Obama gloating about the reopened GM plant that will build a new American small car (which probably means a poorly built Smart) -- do you think that was GM's decision or was it forced on them by Obama's stooges? Both GM and Chrysler had to submit which (politically correct) cars would survive and which ones would be axed as part of the bailout. Chrysler had its advertising budget slashed in half BY THE GOVERNMENT and if I'm not mistaken both GM and Chrysler didn't choose the dealerships to be shut down by themselves.
 
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I know it's a cliche to hate Moore these days... but for the love of God, will someone stuff a seventies ABA-style striped tube sock down this guy's throat? Everything he says is self-contradictory, short-sighted, illogical, ridiculously arrogant, self-righteous and irritating. Just watch "Bowling for Columbine" or "Sicko" someday and try to avoid throwing things at the screen. Go ahead, I dare you.

Michael Moore 'filled with joy' Over GM's Bankruptcy

The communist fat clown is happy to see thousands of people losing their jobs. Is good for Politburo, da?

And, oh yeah, did anybody see that as part of the Opel sale GM is not allowed to import Opel's small cars and badge them as GM cars? I.E. PROTECTIONISM FOR THE UNION STOOGES BUILDING OUR NEW CRAPMOBILE.
 
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I know it's a cliche to hate Moore these days... but for the love of God, will someone stuff a seventies ABA-style striped tube sock down this guy's throat? Everything he says is self-contradictory, short-sighted, illogical, ridiculously arrogant, self-righteous and irritating. Just watch "Bowling for Columbine" or "Sicko" someday and try to avoid throwing things at the screen. Go ahead, I dare you.
Dude that's not funny. I lost a monitor like that (watched Bowling for Columbine on my PC)

Mad_Science said:
link to jalopnik post

I still can't figure out of Moore is a total idiot or a genius who knows exactly what to say to get idiots all riled up.

I'm leaning towards genius because his flawed points of view are exactly in line with what many people without much education or desire to look things up themselves want to think.

He picks up on the sentiment of the day and runs with it. Since most people actually make decisions emotionally and not rationally, people default to believing what he says, and the burden is on others to dynamite out the plaques of BS from the public's mind.

Of course, the very act of mounting a counter-argument lends him the legitimacy of being worth debating, which is what he didn't have to start with, and primes the public for his next crusade of foolishness.

Like I said: genius.
 
Saw this on ABC news.



In its recent bankruptcy filing, G.M. asked that the assets of the new company that emerges from bankruptcy be ?free and clear of all successor liability claims.? It is an attempt to prevent the new G.M. from being financially responsible for injuries caused by vehicles already sold, said Adina Rosenbaum, a lawyer for Public Citizen, a consumer advocacy group.

Avoiding those obligations could save G.M. a lot of money. Last year it paid about $921 million to settle product-liability claims, according to G.M.?s filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission. In 2007 the payments topped $1.1 billion.

Link


The told you about 1 guy who damaged his back because certain Jeeps went into reverse by themselves. A little girls spine was broken by a seatbelt, one guys legs got burnt off and a cameraman whos car rolled and the roof collapsed, killing him.

The little girl needs $500,000 a year medical care, that she aint gonna get now.
 
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Saw this on ABC news.

The told you about 1 guy who damaged his back because certain Jeeps went into reverse by themselves. A little girls spine was broken by a seatbelt, one guys legs got burnt off and a cameraman whos car rolled and the roof collapsed, killing him.

The little girl needs $500,000 a year medical care, that she aint gonna get now.

Related article - from the Obama Motors department and TheHill.com:

Lawyers cry foul over GM
By Ian Swanson
Posted: 06/02/09 08:19 PM [ET]

Consumer groups and trial lawyers are crying foul over the Obama administration?s bankruptcy plans for General Motors and Chrysler.

Those plans would extinguish all ongoing auto accident claims that blame a death or serious injury on a defective GM or Chrysler vehicle.

?It?s a raw deal for consumers,? said Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety.

Ditlow said the plans are unusual in that they would prevent anyone from bringing a future liability claim against GM or Chrysler if a car already purchased from either company is defective and results in an accident causing death or serious injury.

He and others said it was also unusual for no money to be set aside for liability claims. When companies producing asbestos went bankrupt, some funds were set aside for such claims, Ditlow said.

Pam Gilbert, of Cuneo Gilbert and LaDuca LLP in Washington, said Obama?s auto task force should have looked out more for consumers and those with liability cases as it negotiated the complicated bankruptcy plans for both companies.

She notes that the administration is guaranteeing warranties issued by GM during its bankruptcy, meaning someone could get a broken exhaust pipe found to be defective fixed even while GM is in bankruptcy.

This means ?they will fix the car, but if someone with a car suffers a serious injury or death because of a defection, we won?t fix the person,
? Gilbert said.

Although a committee representing consumers and those with cases against the companies was involved in negotiations over Chrysler?s and GM?s bankruptcies, the group has received less attention compared to unions and those holding company debt.

That may change on Wednesday, when victims and families of victims with claims against the companies hold a press conference outside a Senate Commerce Committee hearing on GM?s bankruptcy.

Those set to attend include the family of an ABC cameraman killed when the roof of his GM Suburban caved in during an accident, as well as the families of several children who suffered broken necks and blame faulty seatbelts, according to the Center for Justice and Democracy, a New York-based consumer group.

Three hundred plaintiffs seeking $1.25 billion in damages are affected, another attorney told The Wall Street Journal?s ?Deal Journal? blog.

General Motors says claimants will have the opportunity to submit their claims and have them resolved ?as provided by the Bankruptcy Code and other applicable law, both as to amount and priority.?

?We won?t discuss specific claims or the possible outcomes, as that will be determined by the court,? it said in a statement.

But those claims must be made against the old GM company after bankruptcy, meaning people with the claims will need to stand in line with other unsecured creditors to seek compensation from the old company?s remains, Gilbert said.

The new GM that arises out of bankruptcy will not be liable for those claims.

Ditlow blamed Obama?s auto task force for the situation, which he said would ultimately add to other problems.

He cited the case of a young girl in New York left a quadriplegic from a car accident who has $500,000 in annual medical costs. That victim is likely to become a ward of the state, he said.


Ford emerging stronger

Ford, the only U.S. automaker that hasn?t received a bailout, still looks like it could emerge from the turmoil surrounding the industry in good shape.

After General Motors filed for Chapter 11 on Monday and the Obama administration made the painful choice to take a 60 percent government stake in the company, Ford said it did not expect any major disruptions to its operations as a result of the news.

It?s also benefiting from good public will in Congress and with the administration for not taking government money.

Officials involved with the auto bailout in Obama?s administration voiced confidence in Ford during a conference call on Sunday. They said the company maintains ample financial resources to ride out the storm.

?Ford has been very successful in maintaining and even growing its market share during this period and is a world-class company, and we do believe completely ? and that has been the president?s decisions ? the belief that this country can support three domestic successful, viable auto companies,? an administration official said during the call.

The government?s stake in GM could benefit Ford, which marched to Capitol Hill arm in arm with GM and Chrysler last fall to urge Congress to offer help to its rivals. At the time, Ford CEO Alan Mulally was worried about the implications GM?s or Chrysler?s collapse could have on his company, which depends on a similar supply base.

That?s still a huge worry for Ford, but one that?s less intense given the $30 billion the government is spending on GM. Those funds should carry through to suppliers, which will also help Ford.

As a result, Ford could be helped by the infusion of government cash into its biggest domestic rival, even as it now competes with a company backed by the government.

?We look forward to working with the Obama administration to ensure that the government?s majority ownership of GM will not change the industry?s competitive dynamics and that a level playing field will be maintained,? Ford said in a statement.

Though Ford and GM enjoyed sales rebounds in May, all three domestic companies and foreign automakers selling in the U.S. face a difficult environment, an industry source said.

What would really help Ford is Congress?s completion of a ?cash for clunkers? program that would provide an incentive for consumers to trade in their old cars for new, fuel-efficient vehicles. One of Ford?s best sellers is the Ford Fusion, a hybrid that gets the best fuel mileage of any sedan.
 
If GM failed, it should have sufferred and gone out of business.

I agree. GM should have just folded and auctioned everything off. No point wasting money maintaining a company that does nothing but lose money.
 
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