E30 vs Miata

[JipJopJones]

If you are going to get a BMW e30... get the 318is. It's got the best gear ratios and the LSD. It also doesn't have the engine a-splode problem that the 325's did.

They are tought to find, especially nice ones that haven't been beaten to a pulp, but it's worth it.

 

[thedguy]

If you are going to get a BMW e30... get the 318is. It's got the best gear ratios and the LSD. It also doesn't have the engine a-splode problem that the 325's did.

They are tought to find, especially nice ones that haven't been beaten to a pulp, but it's worth it.

You must have missed the thread where I posted pictures of my brothers engine, right after the timing chain got sucked up into the oil pump.

Speaking of which, e30 buying tip #1: if the current owner doesn't understand how the hood opens, walk away quickly.

 

[AarheadC]

You must have missed the thread where I posted pictures of my brothers engine, right after the timing chain got sucked up into the oil pump.

Speaking of which, e30 buying tip #1: if the current owner doesn't understand how the hood opens, walk away quickly.

LOL:lol: "Well maybe if I force the front up more, it will open...I swear I open the hood all the time to, you know, check engine...stuff."

 

[LeVeL]

Phew, a lot of informative posts. Thanks fellas!

Only 16mpg? That can't be right...

Anyways, what is your budget?
I'm assuming that you are looking for a project car, one that you are willing to spend money and work on. In that case, I think you should consider the E30's nemesis - the 190 2.3 Cosworth. It will be very hard to find one, and it's going to need some work, but once brought to shape...it will be a killer drive.

Nope, not a project. This will be a DD and it has to be reliable, easy to fix, easy to find parts, etc. Cossie is definitely out of the question unfortunately

I have done full suspension, basic breathing mods for some more sound (they do sound good if done well) and a good set of wheels and tires on my car. I drive it almost every day in all sorts of conditions for the past two years, with 37k miles put on in that time, and I have absolutely nothing bad to say about it. I could care less about the image it projects because it's hard to take those people seriously when you're having so much fun on even the most mundane drives.

That's right along the lines of what I'm looking to do, mod-wise.

S52 Swap for the win?

With a turbo?

Yeah I think a E30 Easily takes the cake here.

Haha no, swaps are way out of the budget... at least for the time being.

One other thing with the BMW, touched on it before with the comfort thing, the miata is not exactly quiet, hard to get away from the road noise with a piece of cloth. I actually have a set of ear plugs for trips longer than about 1/2 hour as the noise gets to me.

The other problem is, you have to be cautions with anything nice in the car as it's just a knife through your soft top away from getting stolen. A broken window is cheaper than a new soft top, and glass shards seem to be a better deterrent to thieves.

My best friend has a gutted CRX. It is by far the loudest and least comfortable car I have ever been in. However, I've gotten used to it so much that when I drove a Miata it felt perfectly normal and comfortable.

Winter's will suck in either. Yes you can do it, but it will suck. Be prepared to buy snow tires and a shit ton of kitty litter.

Yep, winter tires are definitely on the to-buy list if I get... well, any RWD car. Having said that, I've driven a MkIII Supra and a 1.8 Miata in the snow and they were a lot of fun. The Miata was a bit harder to control though, thanks to the short wheelbase.

I've thought of a BMW E30 for a long time. From what I understand they're brilliantly-handling cars, practical, trackable, good-looking, cheap to work on, reliable, and hold their value well. My neighbor had a beautiful black 325ix with the optional sport wheels, and it was sexy as all hell. You don't even need to have an expensive ur-M3 to do stuff like this:

Problem is, I've searched for them around this area for a while, and the ones I've found are either incredibly overpriced, busted to hell, or turned into some dorifto-king M3 Eurotrash beater. They're hard to find for some reason: this was one of three I found in an Autotrader search within our area code (other ones are here and here). But hey, it's got potential!

Hmm... good to know, especially coming from a fellow Centralmassachusettsian

I do apologize, I forgot that the 1.6 had the shit viscous diff... I strongly advise everyone to get 1.8 cars anyways so I had forgotten about that.

Interesting... I didn't know that the 1.6s had a viscous. 94+ it is then!

 

[Twerp128]

If you have steep hill starts or more than 3" of snow forget about it. And if there is one thing I hate about my Miata it's the diff.

 

[Arctor]

If you have steep hill starts or more than 3" of snow forget about it. And if there is one thing I hate about my Miata it's the diff.

With snow tires on they aren't bad, I drove one years ago with snow tires on and it did quite well for a light RWD car. Thankfully NC never consistently gets heavy snow so I don't have to worry about them.

 

[thedguy]

94+ is definitely a bonus. You get stronger brakes as well as stronger diff and trans. My NA (pre-97's are Na's, 99+ NB and the newest designs are NC). has 1.8l brakes and the trans. The brake swap is cheap as you just need the caliper brackets.

 

[JipJopJones]

You must have missed the thread where I posted pictures of my brothers engine, right after the timing chain got sucked up into the oil pump.

Speaking of which, e30 buying tip #1: if the current owner doesn't understand how the hood opens, walk away quickly.

Yah, I did miss that one. But still, atleast the 1.8 has a chain, not a belt, which is prone to slipping/snapping like the 2.5's.

 

[thedguy]

Yah, I did miss that one. But still, atleast the 1.8 has a chain, not a belt, which is prone to slipping/snapping like the 2.5's.

I was only jerkin' yer chain (pun intended). The problem my brother had was due to poor maintenance from prior owner so...

 

[Nocturnal]

I think a lot of people get eaten up by buzzwords and information they've read elsewhere, but had no experience of. Yes, the 1.6s do use a viscous diff, but there's nothing wrong with it in the slightest, and anybody who says the thing will blow up under hard driving at stock power is hugely mis-informed. For what it's worth, most of the LSDs these days will be acting like open-diffs anyway. Remember the target market for these cars and the reason the stereotype is there. Now think about how likely it is most of those people will have EVER serviced the diff in the cars life. I've lost count of the number of people I go on track with who sing the praises of the LSD, and then find it wasnt actually working properly anyway. If going sideways is your thing, you can still very easily drift with the viscous diff, though only fairly low-speed stuff (4th gear+ speeds and it shows it's unsuitable). For track driving, I can't say I've ever suffered enough to warrant swapping it out for a Torsen, certainly not with the work that's involved (half-shafts, prop etc).

As for the 1.8s, the only benefit they get really is the bigger brakes. The extra bracing is minimal, and the beefier transmission and driveline only come into effect if you're looking into an FI set-up. Down to the sheer number of these cars, upgrading to 1.8 brakes (which as said, simply requires the caliper carrier brackets) is cheap and simple. The 1.6 got a lighter flywheel and a lower final drive, meaning to drive it feels much more responsive and happier to rev. While they're down on power in comparison, performance-wise they're almost identical due to the gearing. I'd sooner strip off my testes with a rusty spoon than swap my 1.6 for a 1.8, as I have little intention of going FI (despite that TD04 I still have... )

The E30s are great cars, and again the one I would go for is a 318IS. My friend had an M-tech model (uprated suspension, factory bodykit etc) and it looked and sounded lovely. I have to admit, I didn't think it was particularly thrilling to drive which is why I didn't buy it off him when he came to sell it, like I always said I would. Obviously this is all very subjective, but at the time I was driving an MR2, and in the BMW you could really feel the extra weight and size. I loved the sound and the ''feeling'' of having torque to a degree, but it just felt a bit slow and dim-witted. A lot of people track them though, and they're very popular drift cars due to being so cheap. I wouldn't necessarily say they're reliable, and they're certainly not cheap to fix, but as a cheap hooligan car they're a great option.

If you could find a good E30 for substantially cheaper, I'd go E30. Otherwise, I'd go Miata everytime.

 

[Leonidae]

If you have steep hill starts or more than 3" of snow forget about it. And if there is one thing I hate about my Miata it's the diff.

Or one could learn how to drive in the white stuff. It's part of driver license here. Practice makes perfect, you know.. :lol:

 

[LeVeL]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Nocturnal again.

ugh. Thanks for the great post!

 

[Arctor]

Yes, the 1.6s do use a viscous diff, but there's nothing wrong with it in the slightest, and anybody who says the thing will blow up under hard driving at stock power is hugely mis-informed. For what it's worth, most of the LSDs these days will be acting like open-diffs anyway.

Viscous diffs lose efficacy over time no matter what you do, not to mention the fact that Torsen diffs have amazing characteristics. You have to remember that VLSD's can only provide about 15-20% locking compared to the Torsen being able to actively shift power to the outside wheel. The effect of this also neutralizes some understeer on exit giving amazing handling traits. VLSD's also do not have the instant response of a Torsen diff.

I go on track with who sing the praises of the LSD, and then find it wasnt actually working properly anyway. If going sideways is your thing, you can still very easily drift with the viscous diff, though only fairly low-speed stuff (4th gear+ speeds and it shows it's unsuitable). For track driving, I can't say I've ever suffered enough to warrant swapping it out for a Torsen, certainly not with the work that's involved (half-shafts, prop etc).

The beauty of a Torsen diff is that unlike VLSD's they don't wear out. They also work the exact same way 100% of the time giving you extreme consistency if you decide to take it on track. As far as drifting, Viscous diffs will disintegrate in no time.

As for the 1.8s, the only benefit they get really is the bigger brakes. The extra bracing is minimal, and the beefier transmission and driveline only come into effect if you're looking into an FI set-up. Down to the sheer number of these cars, upgrading to 1.8 brakes (which as said, simply requires the caliper carrier brackets) is cheap and simple. The 1.6 got a lighter flywheel and a lower final drive, meaning to drive it feels much more responsive and happier to rev. While they're down on power in comparison, performance-wise they're almost identical due to the gearing. I'd sooner strip off my testes with a rusty spoon than swap my 1.6 for a 1.8, as I have little intention of going FI (despite that TD04 I still have... )

On track with my car I was faster than any of the other stock Miatas and for good reason, I was in the 1.8 and they were all in the 1.6. Despite being in a heavier car, I can brake later, get on the power sooner and when I do get on the power I have much better midrange. The 96-97 cars especially because they had the most power, best of all the chassis bits, best brakes and everything was well sorted out.

The 1.6 guys in the paddock were always coming up with reasons as to why I was faster than them but the fact remains that unless I was just that much better of a driver than them (I'm not) then it's down to the car. Now that I've stopped going to HPDE's and am now doing a lot more autocross and time attacks (much much cheaper to keep up, and less wear on a daily driver) the difference is even more pronounced. There are 5 of us who regularly show up in Miatas with pretty much the same basic mods (look back a few posts if you're curious) and the 3 1.6 guys are always finishing behind me and the other 1.8 driver unless we make a major mistake.

As for driving one daily the 1.8 just can't be beat. The 1.6 can feel a little caught out unless you downshift whereas in the 1.8 I can get decent acceleration in 5th gear.

 

[LeVeL]

I will look for a 1.8 first, I've already decided that. However, if I find a good 1.6 I'll take it

 

[prizrak]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Nocturnal again.

ugh. Thanks for the great post!

Is cool I hooked him up

Viscous diffs lose efficacy over time no matter what you do, not to mention the fact that Torsen diffs have amazing characteristics. You have to remember that VLSD's can only provide about 15-20% locking compared to the Torsen being able to actively shift power to the outside wheel. The effect of this also neutralizes some understeer on exit giving amazing handling traits. VLSD's also do not have the instant response of a Torsen diff.

The beauty of a Torsen diff is that unlike VLSD's they don't wear out. They also work the exact same way 100% of the time giving you extreme consistency if you decide to take it on track. As far as drifting, Viscous diffs will disintegrate in no time.

You are forgetting one very key thing. Once the VLSD heats up to a certain point it doesn't have enough viscosity to lock properly leaving you with mostly an open diff.
Torsens get very easily confused in low grip conditions because they have a hard time shuffling torque around since both wheels will be losing traction. For track duty they work pretty well but drifting is pretty much always a 2-way locking diff or at the very least 1.5.

 

[Arctor]

You are forgetting one very key thing. Once the VLSD heats up to a certain point it doesn't have enough viscosity to lock properly leaving you with mostly an open diff.
Torsens get very easily confused in low grip conditions because they have a hard time shuffling torque around since both wheels will be losing traction. For track duty they work pretty well but drifting is pretty much always a 2-way locking diff or at the very least 1.5.

Generally when VLSD's get that hot they grenade anyways.

A clutch LSD is the best for drifting but you can do it on a Torsen. The only conditions that really hurt a Torsen are when you're on ice or when one wheel is off the ground, but other than that I have yet to really catch it out. Even on wet roads sliding around on purpose it still locks up both rear wheels just fine.

 

[prizrak]

Generally when VLSD's get that hot they grenade anyways.

A clutch LSD is the best for drifting but you can do it on a Torsen. The only conditions that really hurt a Torsen are when you're on ice or when one wheel is off the ground, but other than that I have yet to really catch it out. Even on wet roads sliding around on purpose it still locks up both rear wheels just fine.

Might just be different types of torsens a friend of mine complained of the S2000 being really confused on snow and horrible at drifting.

 

[Arctor]

Might just be different types of torsens a friend of mine complained of the S2000 being really confused on snow and horrible at drifting.

Well torsens are bad on snow but it's not his LSD that is keeping him from drifting well. It's two things, first it's a VERY hard car to drift because the rear suspension is designed to toe in or out based on compression and since he is essentially doing it backwards he is generating toe in on the outside tire, which is very very bad for drifting. Second, he is probably not all that good at it, and it's a lot easier to blame the car than it is himself.

 

[Twerp128]

Or one could learn how to drive in the white stuff. It's part of driver license here. Practice makes perfect, you know.. :lol:

It's not so much driving as it is ground clearance. The Miata is a very predictable car, but side roads with moderate snow accumulation will lead to you plowing snow and getting stuck. Snow tires help but they still only just help.

 

[thedguy]

It's not so much driving as it is ground clearance. The Miata is a very predictable car, but side roads with moderate snow accumulation will lead to you plowing snow and getting stuck. Snow tires help but they still only just help.

You guys in the midwest could never run some of the parts we SoCal guys do...