Teen destroys ex-roommate's apartment; roasts her kitten in the oven "as a joke"

I don't agree with the death sentence, one death for another doesn't square in my head. I do think prison sentences should be harder though, I don't think prison scares people anymore (Well, it scares me, but I mean career criminals and stuff).

I've always said bring back hard labour and you can make energy in prisons, have them walking on generators or something for a few hours each every day.

Anyway, I don't think that girl should be killed, even though I've said she's sick person and I do have a cat myself, longer prison sentence and psychiatric help.

One death doesn't justify another.
 
What is the difference between torturing a living creature and torturing another living creature? I can't see it. And neither can you, but if I asked you what is the difference between torturing a cat and torturing a woman, everyone would say that torturing a woman is a worse crime. Still, If now I told you that the cat was tortured out of fun and that the woman would be tortured as a punishment for what she has done, out of an established law, your mind will, quite funnily, change completely again, and torturing a cat would be a worse crime.

But... in the end... is it not torture both times?

How can our judgement change so greatly, and so rapidly? How can torturing being worse than... torturing?

I partly agree with freeferraris: yes, it is usual to disassociate the criminal from the crime, as it is usual to merge two different things, like guilt and responsibilty, into one single subject, which is the main flaw of "eye for an eye", and which is why we tend to strangely judge the same torture as good or bad depending on the circumstances.

Ok, I try to explain:

When we do something, every thing we do, we are "responsible" for what we have done: be it good or bad, useful or pointless, helping or hurting, we have the responsibility for what we have done, even if we are not guilty for something wrong. We are responsible because we "do" things, whether willingly or not. Guilt is a different thing, it defines the state of someone who has broken a rule, be it civil, religious, social, cultural, or one of our most deep taboos as human beings.

So, we are always responsible for what we do, but we are only occasionaly guilty for something we have done, acoording to some kind of law. Law is precisely what defines between guilt and innocence. it gives other people the "right" to put a limit to our free will and to punish us for our actions.

We constantly tend to confuse and identify this two concepts and think that if we are not guilty, then we are not responsible, while if we are responsible, then we are, by consequence, guilty. The two terms are almost considered synonyms. But they are not. From this confusion comes that overindulgence that freeferraris highlighted. But clearing this confusion means, at the same time, renounce to some quite harsh punishments. Why? If responsibility equals guilty, and non responsibility equals non-guilty, then whoever do something without a positive act of will, perhaps by reaction, or by consequence, or because it is forced by laws or men, is innocent. We know this, and we accept this. It is a tool to defend ourselves and our way of thinking.

Every one of us, in fact, can feel anger against a sadistic torturer, and it is easy to sentence him/her to a suffering death. It is easy because usually we are not sadistic torturers, so we know something like that is either hardly understandable in our mind and not likely to happen to us. But at the same time we feel the danger of being punished for unintentional acting. Noone would have himself killed for having unintentionally killed another man... Since we can't divide guilt and responsibility, we say that what discriminates between guilt and innocence is will.

Unfortunately, this means that our rage can not be unleashed against mad people, or other kind of unintentional acting. If the defendant could not act differently, he/she is innocent. And we are, therefore, frustrated. (I won't enter in the mined field of "free will", because this would make us all "not punishable"). Freeferraris calls this frustration "fooling ourselves", and he is not completely wrong, in my opinion. We become overindulgent because of our failure to separate guilt and responsibility. But his answer to this problem is again a product of our failure. He is stating, onece again, that killing according to the law is different than killing out of the law, and torturing according to the law is different than torturing out of the law. Why? Is it only because we are "told" to do so or because something has already happened? "Eye for en eye" may cause endless wars and vengeances and killings and so on. Anyone want to have a look at Israel and Palestine? I am right to kill because they killed, because I killed, because they killed... forever.

No. Justice through "eye for an eye" is subject to the same responsibility = guilt flaw, and won't do.

What should we do then? Let criminals free? No, not at all. This would also be subject to the same flaw. But if guilt and responsibility are separated, law, which is what defines guilt, would tell us how to limit the freedom of action of the one responsible for what would be considered a crime; law should not tell us how to punish a crime, but when and how to limit the freedom of another person if he/she is responsible for breaking a rule, knowing well that we could not use, as punishments, what the law itself prohibits to free people.

Limiting one person in his/her freedom, according to law, should not be seen as a punishment, but only as the most effective way (when it is the case), to grant freedom to everyone else.

So, in this case the girl should end up in some confined space so she will avoid doing these things again. Also, in the best of the worlds possible, her confinement should be in a mental health institution, to help her change her ways and return, possibly, to a free life.
 
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This story is pretty sick! I hope that girl gets what she deserves.

I apologize in advance, but I just can't help it...the moment I read the story I immediately thought of this:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T13J-A1ATQ[/YOUTUBE]

(gets ready for the neg reps :cool:)
 
So...revenge killings are alright?

Yes. The death penalty is in itself revenge killing, just a state-sponsored version which usually has a trial preceding it.
 
There are other ways to justify the death penalty, such as a preventative measure to prevent the person from killing again, or as a way to avoid spending state funding one someone who is not worth the expense.
 
Well it's just my opinion... I don't see how the state should be allowed to kill when it's people aren't. Revenge killing or not.
 
I think it is justified in cases of serial killers. Not for a case of animal torture, no matter how cruel. 1 year in jail is a joke, though, and the person obviously needs mental help besides something that will just make her angry and bored.
 
Say what? The ASPCA has the authority to arrest people?!?!
Wikipedia said:
In the state of New York, the ASPCA's Humane Law Enforcement division has powers to investigate cruelty and enforce laws. The Humane Law Enforcement division has been featured on the Animal Planet television program, Animal Precinct.

The Humane Law Enforcement Division is the police branch of the ASPCA staffed by 14 armed New York State peace officers who respond to reports of animal cruelty in marked ASPCA patrol cars in the New York City area as well as perform undercover operations. The officers are empowered through NYS Criminal Procedure Law and NY Agriculture and Markets laws to investigate allegations of animal abuse, seize animals being abused, and make arrests for the prosecution for animal cruelty.
 
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^ Ah, OK. So, basically, they are fully trained and qualified police officers assigned to the "Animal Cruelty" division.
 
Now that I've read this, I will not sleep tonight. And I have to get up at 6.50 in the morning tomorrow. Thanks a lot Finalgear.
 
I've given these scenarios a lot of thought, initiated by those brutal "couple of young guys almost kill old man in subway station out of fun" happenings. In the end - and this applies to cases such as this one also - I came up with two possible scenarios, which I will reason now and tell you afterwards.

The problem being: with punishing these people for their actions by locking them away or making them work for the public in some way does not help. With that, you decouple these youngsters from society. In most cases, they already do not think very high of "society" as it is, and being a part of it. With punishment, those thoughs only get worse. Even with a short jail time or other punishment, you initiate the "Fuck society, they just dropped me! Now I'm gonna show'em!" switch in their head, which only worsens their behaviour. With that, they'll get more punishment when they are released again - a vicious circle only few people can break out of.

So basically, we have two choices:

1) Kill them. Not very nice, I agree. But a consequent one, since there is no form of punishment which will enlighten them and make them better people.

2) Forgive them their faults and show them that working hard and being a good person pays off. There is a respectable success rate in programs which teaches youngsters that were delinquent how to get along. Not by punishing them, but by showing them that there is a life beyond frustration and hate, which can actually feel good. This scenario however requires that there is no punishment, which won't go well with many people.

If you ask me personally - and this probably isn't a clever thing to say for a German, but that's how I feel - I'd kill a lot of them. We say we are better than animals because we are aware of the value of life and thus don't kill human beings. Problem is that some of us obviously don't value life as much and thus kill. Some for their own survival, some out of fun. Nature sorts out the bad examples in all departments, so I don't see why we humans shouldn't. I understand the complexity of the question of whether having the death penalty is right or wrong. Actually, I think its wrong. Nevertheless, I think that there are people on this planet which have done things so bad that they deserve to have their life ended.

This spurs an inner conflict in me, since my last statements basically contradict themselves. And as much as I understand that you can't punish killing with killing, I don't see why we should drag a person which has done very wrong things through their measily life, a life we will make worse by locking them away half of the time. If you put your humaneness aside for a moment and think logically, that makes no sense. Thus, I say either make them a proper human being by dropping the jail time and honestly work with them, or get rid of them now.
 
Or, a life sentence. And none of that german bullshit (life = 10 years), but a proper life sentence - lock em up til they die.
 
But what's the point? I know its very cold-hearted, but locking people away for life is just going to cost money and clog up the jails. The inmate's not going to enjoy it, nobody benefits from it, so why do that?
 
But what's the point? I know its very cold-hearted, but locking people away for life is just going to cost money and clog up the jails. The inmate's not going to enjoy it, nobody benefits from it, so why do that?

It costs less money than the death penalty, and is probably a larger deterrent.
 
It costs less money than the death penalty, and is probably a larger deterrent.
I don't know about the costs, but I can't imagine that it's cheaper to kill someone now than to lock him away for 50 years or so. And as I have demonstarted above, jail time usually doesn't work as a deterrent. It took me a long time to grasp the concept as well, but people don't think about the jail time they might probably get when they start to do stupid things. Or they think about it, but since they've already given up on society, they even expect to get jail time when they are caught, because "the evil society doesn't want me!".

If you look around, you will notice that a lot of punishment methods for crimes to not stop people from commiting them. That's why I've come to the conclusion to either wipe them off the face of the earth or drop the concept of punishment and make them proper people.
 
It costs less money than the death penalty, and is probably a larger deterrent.

Hate to say this, but [citation neded]. Also, the death penalty is a proven deterrent, as I've pointed out in other discussions.

There's something else to be said - if someone is dead, you can be absolutely positively certain that they will never re-offend.
 
I've given these scenarios a lot of thought, initiated by those brutal "couple of young guys almost kill old man in subway station out of fun" happenings. In the end - and this applies to cases such as this one also - I came up with two possible scenarios, which I will reason now and tell you afterwards.

The problem being: with punishing these people for their actions by locking them away or making them work for the public in some way does not help. With that, you decouple these youngsters from society. In most cases, they already do not think very high of "society" as it is, and being a part of it. With punishment, those thoughs only get worse. Even with a short jail time or other punishment, you initiate the "Fuck society, they just dropped me! Now I'm gonna show'em!" switch in their head, which only worsens their behaviour. With that, they'll get more punishment when they are released again - a vicious circle only few people can break out of.

So basically, we have two choices:

1) Kill them. Not very nice, I agree. But a consequent one, since there is no form of punishment which will enlighten them and make them better people.

2) Forgive them their faults and show them that working hard and being a good person pays off. There is a respectable success rate in programs which teaches youngsters that were delinquent how to get along. Not by punishing them, but by showing them that there is a life beyond frustration and hate, which can actually feel good. This scenario however requires that there is no punishment, which won't go well with many people.

If you ask me personally - and this probably isn't a clever thing to say for a German, but that's how I feel - I'd kill a lot of them. We say we are better than animals because we are aware of the value of life and thus don't kill human beings. Problem is that some of us obviously don't value life as much and thus kill. Some for their own survival, some out of fun. Nature sorts out the bad examples in all departments, so I don't see why we humans shouldn't. I understand the complexity of the question of whether having the death penalty is right or wrong. Actually, I think its wrong. Nevertheless, I think that there are people on this planet which have done things so bad that they deserve to have their life ended.

This spurs an inner conflict in me, since my last statements basically contradict themselves. And as much as I understand that you can't punish killing with killing, I don't see why we should drag a person which has done very wrong things through their measily life, a life we will make worse by locking them away half of the time. If you put your humaneness aside for a moment and think logically, that makes no sense. Thus, I say either make them a proper human being by dropping the jail time and honestly work with them, or get rid of them now.

Interesting arguments. I would have to agree about human arrogance, we think we are better than other species because we can be so kind and intelligent- problem is, we usually use this kindness and intelligence to trick, kill, maim and all of the other things we as a species pride ourselves on not doing.

And I have had the same conflict about death or life imprisonment- though where I stand on the issue is in my previous posts, I can accept arguments against it; it isn't an untenable position.
 
Yes. The death penalty is in itself revenge killing, just a state-sponsored version which usually has a trial preceding it.

Not exactly. The death penalty is not just a simple revenge killing; there are several aspects to it.

1. Deterrence: "Don't do this or instead of a nice cell, soft cot, three square meals a day and free healthcare for life we'll shove a needle in your arm and end the problem that way."
2. Societal protection: "You are too dangerous to society to be allowed to have even the possibility, however slim, of escaping and killing again."
3. And yes, revenge: "You kill us, we'll kill you back."

There are other ways to justify the death penalty, such as a preventative measure to prevent the person from killing again, or as a way to avoid spending state funding one someone who is not worth the expense.

Please name one method that is as certain to prevent relapses into murder as the death penalty. Hollywood horror movies aside, chances are pretty good that an executed rapist/torturer/murderer is not going to re-offend.

Until such time as you can point to a 100% or even 99% effective mental or medical therapy for such persons, I'll stick with the death penalty.

Well it's just my opinion... I don't see how the state should be allowed to kill when it's people aren't. Revenge killing or not.

I live in Texas. We're not allowed to commit murder, but justifiable homicide and self-defense is permitted. The death penalty is viewed as societal self-defense.

Please note that even in Texas, the death penalty is not invoked in simple murder cases per se - it requires an element of additional depravity to get the DA to go for the death penalty... Plus you must convince the jury that the death penalty is warranted, which even in Texas isn't nearly as easy as the media would have you believe.
 
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