Explain me this, Forums Dot Final Gear Dot Com.

Unless you match revs properly and the clutch doesn't have to make up the engine speed difference.

It still wears on the clutch though, of course it's far worse to ride your clutch on hill or cruising. But downshifting, even with rev matching downshifting still puts wear on the clutch and it's components. Downshifting for braking is unnecessary in nearly all street driving applications, only I can really think of is engine braking downhill, and winter driving. Let's day you just downshift to second gear when braking, you'll save an almost incalculable amount of gasoline (if your car is fairly modern), while you are engaging the clutch 25-75% more than you would normally.

It is fun though.
 
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What self-respecting FinalGear member doesn't match revs? :D

I can't imagine driving a manual and not matching revs.

It still wears on the clutch though
When you match revs? It may wear out the pedal spring, but not the clutch itself... and a spring is a heckofalot cheaper and easier to replace ;)

The idea is to get the flywheel and the clutch spinning at the same speed so that, when they connect, there is no friction between them, and, therefore, no wear.
 
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Matching revs also costs more fuel... so what was that justification again? :p
 
Downshifting for braking is unnecessary in nearly all street driving applications
Yeah, I'd love to get rear-ended at an intersection because I'm in the wrong gear to speed up and avoid the idiot behind me.

so what was that justification again?
I believe twerp made that point already :D ...
It is fun though.
 
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How in the name of all that is decent is one supposed to operate a manual car at speeds under 25 mph? 1st gear isn't enough, 2nd gear is too much. If I leave it in first all the old people in the parking lot going for Sunday strolls look at me like I'm evil, if I switch to 2nd the car shutters due to lack of power and its hard to maintain the speedlimit.

Wierd car :) All the manuals I've driven in my short motoring career so far (quite a few, thanks to my Fox being at the dealer all the time... I've pretty much had the entire VW range to test...) will happily do 15kph in 2nd gear.

Thirdly, how resistant are engines to high revs? While I understand running around town in 2nd gear and 8000rpm will do major damage, would running it at 4000 or 5000 for 25-30 seconds do any real damage?

Nah, no damage as long as it's not freezing cold.

Fourthly, I try to downshift as much as possible especially to assist in slowing down. However, sometimes I'll just pop it in neutral and just use the breaks. Explain to me why this is wrong, and how awful of a driver I am for doing this.

Well, there are two types of slowing down (emergency stops excepted of course, screw shifting then ;)). Red light a looooooong way ago? Keeping it in gear will stop too quickly, better to go to neutral. Red light coming soon, real braking required? Best to keep it in the current gear until the overrun fuel cutoff stops (depending on the car somewhere between 1000 and 1500rpm), then neutral. Keeping it in gear longer with fuel going in will work against the brakes and waste fuel, changing gears to take load off the brakes won't really reduce their wear noticeably, but it will increase clutch wear or fuel consumption when matching revs.



I have some very similar questions having driven a manual all of 5 minutes in my life. In general, is it bad to skip gears?

Yes.

Want fuel economy by shifting into the more economical gear quickly, for example 2->4? Well, consider this: You've been in 2nd for too long, could have saved fuel in 3rd and shift to 4th at the same time as you would when skipping.

Want to reduce clutch wear by reducing number of shifts? When shifting regularly, the engine will rev down by itself to roughly the correct revs during the shifting. If you skip a gear and shift as quickly as usual, your flywheel will be going too fast.

One exception: Accelerating onto the Autobahn/similar highways in heavy but quick traffic. You'll want the acceleration from 3rd, but don't need 4th/5th if you don't want to go any faster.



Oh yeah, concerning low-end torque: My 3cyl 1.2l Fox will easily set off without any throttle. All you need is a careful left foot, tip: try setting off in 2nd without gas whenever you're not on a hill, in a hurry or in traffic. As soon as you're able to do that, getting a move on in 1st is a doddle.
Your clutch will hug you for it. If there's throttle before it's fully engaged, there is a higher difference in rpm resulting in more wear. If you have no throttle there is less difference, and it will fully engage sooner. As soon as it's fully engaged, you can give it a hoof full with no trouble.
 
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When you match revs? It may wear out the pedal spring, but not the clutch itself... and a spring is a heckofalot cheaper and easier to replace ;)
Not sure what a pedal spring is. You WILL wear out a throwout bearing faster, it's a mere matter of more usage. A throwout bearing will cost you pretty much the same as a clutch job (cause it is a clutch job), probably $400+.

The idea is to get the flywheel and the clutch spinning at the same speed so that, when they connect, there is no friction between them, and, therefore, no wear.
It is true that rev matching massively improves clutch life, however who matches revs perfectly, or nearly perfect. Every. Single. Shift. Harder in situations when brakes are required as well. Any amount of slip is the enemy, it produces heat and therefore wear and possibly warping.

Oh yeah, concerning low-end torque: My 3cyl 1.2l Fox will easily set off without any throttle. All you need is a careful left foot, tip: try setting off in 2nd without gas whenever you're not on a hill, in a hurry or in traffic.
May not be a good idea unless your car is a diesel or has loads of bottom end torque.
 
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1st gear should only be used to get going, so that's what I use it for.

Depends, I've been known to cruise around in first. In a variety of cars from a Ford Mustang GT to an MGB.

Whappeh, as you drive you will learn clutch control. Things will get better.
 
It is true that rev matching massively improves clutch life, however who matches revs perfectly, or nearly perfect. Every. Single. Shift. Harder in situations when brakes are required as well. Any amount of slip is the enemy, it produces heat and therefore wear and possibly warping.
I do it all the time, so I get right to close-to-it most of the time. I heel-two sometimes too, just for fun ;)
 
I do it all the time, so I get right to close-to-it most of the time. I heel-two sometimes too, just for fun ;)

How old is your clutch now, and how long have you had the car?
 
Oh yeah, concerning low-end torque: My 3cyl 1.2l Fox will easily set off without any throttle.

Meanwhile, my 4cyl 2.0L ZX2 will stall if you wiggle your shoe on the pedal to get into a more comfortable position while sitting at a long light (yes, that's what neutral is for - but the point is that ANY position other than full-disengaged is stall territory without additional throttle). Every car is different - we're beholden to gear ratios, idle speeds, and all manner of other variables which are fixed at the factory.
 
^This.

I think we all do it, it's just a matter for some of us keeping the spirited driving to the track and when we have a fun open road, thus saving mechanical wear and money. No sense downshifting in most day to day hustle and bustle driving.
 
I've only driven the WRX, not the non-turbo Impreza. But it seems like your problem is more related to the clutch take up. Usually in low speed situations I leave the car in 2nd gear, but I slip the clutch and let the revs go higher if I felt the engine is struggling. In the WRX it's almost impossible to do that, the clutch is very on/off.
 
I made a mental note to monitor my driving this morning due to this thread, since I usually change gear without having to give it much thought. So, when trundling along in town I just usually get it into as high a gear as possible in the lowest speeds possible; I'm keeping the revs at 1750-2250rpm as much as possible and at ~25mph (or 40-45km/h) that means being in 3rd or 4th. And really, there's no problem with that; there's no judder and the car pulls itself along without trouble. Coming to a halt, I do change down pretty eagerly.
It's weird that you couldn't do the same with a 2.5-litre engine, than I do with a 1.6-litre, even if I don't have a boxer engine.
 
How in the name of all that is decent is one supposed to operate a manual car at speeds under 25 mph? 1st gear isn't enough, 2nd gear is too much.

Speeds under 25mph?

Google tells me: 24 miles = 38.624256 kilometers

When I'm driving at 39km/h, I'm already in fourth gear. I don't see what the problem is.
 
"Use the parking brake, Luke!"

Easier said than done in some cars. I have been driving my mother's 1976 w115 240D one and a half months now, and it's a manual. (In most mercedes cars the "handbrake" is a pedal located left of the clutch). I thank God that the old girl had a lot of low end torque, otherwise I would have stalled a lot more. Mind you, I have never used the handbrake for hillstarts so far in any car, seeing as most mercedes have the same problem.

I also had a problem with gearbox ratios:

1st: 0 - 10km/h
2nd: 5 - 40km/h (note, that it could go until 50, but I wanted my engine to stay intact, and at 40 the engine was really revving high)
3rd: 30 - 80km/h (note that anything below 40 on a hill was quite risky)
4th: 40 - 140km/h

So at around 40km/h I had 2 options, either switch up and beg for the incline to be soft, and straight, as I couldn't accelerate in 3rd. Or go 2nd, which was nice, but the engine was really revving too high, and already nearing the end of the 2nd gear. The option of going 4th on anything but a level road was stupid :p
 
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Interesting note: The synchros in my gearbox simply do not let me change down until I slow down, they just whine as the outer synchro pushes against the bulkring until the gear slots in. Obviously I don't make a habit of trying to change down too early.
 
I drive a 75hp econobox with NO torque in low end, it only gets going over 3000rpm.

I use first gear to start of, switch up at ~2500rpm, use second to 2500rpm, third to 2000rpm and then straight to fifth to roll along from 50km/h on.

Sometimes I just kick first and second and go directly to fifth from second, it works ;)

Downshifting for braking, only on steep long hills where you risk overheating your brakes, the problem is people here don't expect you to slow down unless the lights go on so they just rearend you. I normally roll in whatever gear I am in towards a redlight, maybe already put the gear in I need to start off in again (f.e. rolling towards a redlight in fifth, put third in and keep clutch down in case the redlight switches to green......)
 
Fourthly, I try to downshift as much as possible especially to assist in slowing down. However, sometimes I'll just pop it in neutral and just use the breaks. Explain to me why this is wrong, and how awful of a driver I am for doing this.

i yell at everyone who pops it in neutral when slowing down (or even worse, who press in the clutch when taking a corner) just start braking, and when revs go to low, go down a gear.

i'm in the opinion you should keep the engine connected to the wheels as much as possible!
 
Why?

The only reason is to have power on tap to get away from some unexpected road occurrence. But when your downshifting you are usually not anywhere where you could get some torque in a pinch, (diesels excluded), and would have to change down anyhow. And I can pop it into a low gear from neutral just as fast as it takes you downshift to a better gear.

I agree with you on the turning though, I only coast when I'm turning in to park or if there is a backup I can see around the turn. Otherwise you should have done all your braking before the turn and should be on the power if only slightly through the turn.
 
bro, I think your problem is that you granny-shift into 2nd and you don't double clutch.

Also, I'd say that 25mph should be perfectly fine for 2nd or even 3rd... Find someone who can drive stick and have them try it in case you're doing something wrong :dunno:

As far as auto drivers are concerned - they are just f*cking morons. No matter what car I drive, I always leave room behind the car in front on hills in case they roll back.
 
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