The big FG referendum on burqas.

The big FG referendum on burqas.

  • Allowed

    Votes: 55 62.5%

  • Banned

    Votes: 33 37.5%
  • Total voters
    88
jetsetter said:
Well, the Qur'an does instruct Muslims to dress in a modest way.
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But the big question here is how to define modest and since modest is rather vague it's probably a question of who you are asking to define it.

I for one think that a burga(spl?) is a horrid and can by no definition be the only way of dressing "modest" but I don't think that this is enough of a reason to ban them. Everybody should be allowed to wear whatever s/he wants may it be for whatever reasons they want.
But I still have a problem with burgas because of the identification issue and I think that it should at least be allowed to ban them from some locations and/or events and law enfocement should allways have the possibility to check ones ID.
 
Blackout89 said:
But I still have a problem with burgas because of the identification issue and I think that it should at least be allowed to ban them from some locations and/or events and law enfocement should allways have the possibility to check ones ID.
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The current (German) law already covers that.

You're forced to identify yourself to proper authorities (e.g. traffic stop, customs control, etc), burqa or no burqa.
You're not allowed to cover yourself ("vermummen") when you participate in certain public congregations (e.g. protest marches).

No need to ban burqas to achieve identification.
 
jetsetter said:
Well, the Qur'an does instruct Muslims to dress in a modest way.
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Firecat said:
Exactly. That doesn't mean cover yourself up entirely. It means don't dress like a hooker. And I'm pretty sure the muslim women alive the same time as the Prophet Muhammed didn't cover themselves up entirely as well.
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Firecat said:
I just want to reiterate that wearing a veil is NOT an Islamic practice, it's cultural.
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Now that I didn't know, and now I'm curious as to the cultural aspects of it. If the "public good" and the "not Islamic practice" is true, then I don't see any reason why they should be banned.


Also, this is a pretty sweeping poll. Laws are going to vary by country, obviously.
 
narf said:
The current (German) law already covers that.

You're forced to identify yourself to proper authorities (e.g. traffic stop, customs control, etc), burqa or no burqa.
You're not allowed to cover yourself ("vermummen") when you participate in certain public congregations (e.g. protest marches).

No need to ban burqas to achieve identification.
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Yes I know that at least in Germany this is already coverd, thats also why I voted against a ban.
 
I have a few problems with the burqa and niqab
  • It symbolizes the complete oppression of women
  • It is a security issue
  • It locks women into their homes
You're wondering about the last item on the list. I ask, who is going to employ a woman wearing a burqa or niqab? Exactly, nobody. Private enterprises will not and public institutions may not. So by wearing it, involuntarily or not, you effectively disqualify yourself from contributing to society, which is a problem for us all. One might ask oneself if it's correct that the state provides unemployment support in such situations?

Of course there are issues with banning it. One might think that secular and democratic countries are above such measures. But the burqa and niqab are not rooted in islam, they're rooted in extremist views surrounding islam. Should we let the extremists decide over us?

Denmark is preparing a middle way which I think all can agree on but will be extremely hard to enforce, making it illegal to force others to wear religious attires.
 
bone said:
no, 46.7% is proud of its own culture and is of the oppinion that if anybody wants to be part of it, they should adapt to our standards, and not force their own...

if you want to keep your own culture, you should stay in your cultures region...
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i think it's interesting i got an equal amount of positive reps as negative reps for this comment...
 
I hate people who give negative rep for opinions. Make no mistake, I utterly disagree with you, but that's not the point.

How many of the negative reps were anonymous?

As for your post, if you don't want to see other people's culture and customs, stay at home and draw the curtains. Culture.. it's not like swine flu, you won't get it just by walking past people.
 
narf said:
Well there's your problem.

They ARE allowed to show their face for the public good by islamic law, as written in that driver's license link.
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Not exactly. Muslim are divided on whether to lift the veil for someone like a police officer. Some think it's normal, some think it's shameful.
some interesting articles:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/quebecvotes2007/story/2007/03/23/qc-niqab20070323.html

On how the need to identify voters lead to a series of discussions (mainly by non-muslim, in this case).

And

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/27/national/27LICE.html

on how a woman refused to have her photo on her driving licence.


Again, these are mainly cultural differences.

I must admit the vast majority of muslim seem to have no problem with identification issues:

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=0fd8e2fe-351a-4d4e-8fc8-134b86a7acef

But again, the vast majority of muslim does NOT require burqa or niqab for women to be worn. The percentage of those who have issues with lifting the veil for every occasion rises steeply if we consider the burqa or niqab women only.


And:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8392468.stm

Ask yourselves: why would the suicide bomber dress as a woman? I don't know the answer, but I bet it's something related to searchings and police controls.
 
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As usual.. Here, lemme give you a +1.
 
I will follow nomix's example.

+1 from me too.

I generally disapprove negrepping (I never use it as long as the conversation remains civil), and I think negrep MUST be signed.

We (me and bone) share common views on burqas, but we don't agree on almost any of the motivations. An opinion remains an opinion.
 
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It's one thing to negrep for a bloody fowl post, flaming, personal characteristics of a poor nature, building a fundament for bad atmosphere..

But negrepping for conflicting opinions, that's poor, really poor.
 
As someone who lives in a country where veiled women are commonplace, I have to say that I absolutely hate them. They make me uneasy, since they are a symbol of distrust (what, you think I'm going to rape you in a fit of uncontrollable lust if I see your face?) and discourage interaction between people. On a personal level, covering your hair is fine, but I'm strongly against these sorts of face coverings.

However, I don't think any government should ban them in public spaces (nor any other face covering, for that matter, like the Darth Vader mask mentioned before), except for any time a person would need to identify themselves to the government (border crossings, police questioning, driver's license, passport photo, etc.). I also think that *any* establishment that wants to ban them on their own property (malls, stores, banks, etc.) should be able to do so.
 
AiR said:
I have a few problems with the burqa and niqab
  • It symbolizes the complete oppression of women
  • It is a security issue
  • It locks women into their homes
You're wondering about the last item on the list. I ask, who is going to employ a woman wearing a burqa or niqab? Exactly, nobody. Private enterprises will not and public institutions may not. So by wearing it, involuntarily or not, you effectively disqualify yourself from contributing to society, which is a problem for us all. One might ask oneself if it's correct that the state provides unemployment support in such situations?

Of course there are issues with banning it. One might think that secular and democratic countries are above such measures. But the burqa and niqab are not rooted in islam, they're rooted in extremist views surrounding islam. Should we let the extremists decide over us?
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OK if your reason is to alleviate the oppression and isolation of these burqa wearing women, what do you think the result will be for them after such a law is passed? they're not allowed outside due to their customs so they'll just be isolated at home. Great job there Mr Smarty-pants.

You know your ideas about dictating what people may or may not wear are quite extreme so to answer your question "should we let the extremists decide over us?" FUCK NO! ... that includes your wanting to ban certain clothes because for some groups which you dislike and add weird connotations to... I don't want extremist legislation in our country, I want to live in a free country thank you very much.
 
chaos386 said:
However, I don't think any government should ban them in public spaces (nor any other face covering, for that matter, like the Darth Vader mask mentioned before), except for any time a person would need to identify themselves to the government (border crossings, police questioning, driver's license, passport photo, etc.). I also think that *any* establishment that wants to ban them on their own property (malls, stores, banks, etc.) should be able to do so.
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That makes the most sense.

nomix said:
It's one thing to negrep for a bloody fowl post, flaming, personal characteristics of a poor nature, building a fundament for bad atmosphere..
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Well, maybe not here, but some of the posts in the minaret thread have been very close to that "bloody foul post" -negrep quality, at least from me.

That being said, I sign all the ones I give.
 
chaos386 said:
They make me uneasy, since they are a symbol of distrust (what, you think I'm going to rape you in a fit of uncontrollable lust if I see your face?)
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Bikinis make you uneasy on the beach as well? They're the same symbol of distrust, just replace face with boobies.
 
narf said:
Bikinis make you uneasy on the beach as well? They're the same symbol of distrust, just replace face with boobies.
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I know it's the same in a sense, but that's just my personal opinion, which is why I don't think the government should banning anything.

I guess what really bothers me is that veils discourage interaction (at least when coupled with the rest of Arab culture around them). Plus, we're hardwired to use faces to identify people, so when you lose that it's easier to dehumanize someone. It's why people are more likely to be assholes when driving, and you wouldn't believe the kinda shit that mascot performers get while in costume, just because their face isn't visible.
 
salle said:
OK if your reason is to alleviate the oppression and isolation of these burqa wearing women, what do you think the result will be for them after such a law is passed? they're not allowed outside due to their customs so they'll just be isolated at home. Great job there Mr Smarty-pants.

You know your ideas about dictating what people may or may not wear are quite extreme so to answer your question "should we let the extremists decide over us?" FUCK NO! ... that includes your wanting to ban certain clothes because for some groups which you dislike and add weird connotations to... I don't want extremist legislation in our country, I want to live in a free country thank you very much.
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I never said I wanted to ban burqas, or the funny little hats or a christian priest wearing his collar outside of church. However unlike the latter, burqas and niqabs pose several problems, which I have listed and debated. A very recent example is Alia Khalifa (I'm sure you know of her), who is studying to be a primary school teacher, yet fails to understand that it is not acceptable to wear a niqab in her professional capacity. TV4 will run her story again this week. No, I'm not voting for SD ;)
 
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