2010 German Grand Prix - Hockenheim

[Gman333-X-ferrari]

Just thought I'd leave this here.

PAST TEAM ORDERS INCIDENTS

Jerez 1997: McLaren order David Coulthard to let Mika Hakkinen past to win

Australia 1998: McLaren order Coulthard to let Hakkinen past to win

Belgium 1998: Jordan order Ralf Schumacher not to race Damon Hill for the lead

Austria 2002: Ferrari order Rubens Barrichello to let Michael Schumacher past to win

Monaco 2007: McLaren order Lewis Hamilton not to challenge Fernando Alonso for the race win

Brazil 2007: Ferrari manipulate Felipe Massa's pit stop to put Kimi Raikkonen into the lead so he can win the world title

Germany 2008: Heikki Kovalainen lets McLaren team-mate Hamilton through so he can win the race following an error in team tactics

Singapore 2008: Renault order Nelson Piquet to crash to cause a safety car period that helps Alonso win

China 2008: Raikkonen hands Massa second place behind Hamilton so he is in a better championship position heading into the final race

 

[mpicco]

jpm you just don't get what being part of a team is right?
Massa knows he has no shot at the title, and that Fernando does. What would he gain by racing him, risking crashing, destroying his front wing or one of his tyres? Not to mention fighting for position slows both drivers down, as they're more focused in beating eachother than in lap times, they'd allow Vettel to come closer.

Stop and think for a second what kind of atmosphere there would be in the Ferrari pits if after 9 races of being very irrelevant, a 1-2 finish was ruined by a childish thing like a driver who has no chance at the title taking himself and his team mate, who has a chance, out of the race?

I still think team orders or not, Massa was gonna let him pass if Alonso got close, he wouldn't close the door on corners or correct his trajectory to counter. There was no sense in fighting for it. Because they're in the same team

 

[Topgearfanatic]

Brazil 2007: Ferrari manipulate Felipe Massa's pit stop to put Kimi Raikkonen into the lead so he can win the world title
&
China 2008: Raikkonen hands Massa second place behind Hamilton so he is in a better championship position heading into the final race
Lets see, I'll scratch your back if you scratch my back is the phrase that pops into mind. Lets see what Massa gets in the future in return, which will be the only way I will feel that Massa has been unduped.

 

[narf]

jpm you just don't get what being part of a team is right?

The team championship is unchanged by the team order, what was changed is the driver's championship.

 

[mpicco]

You Ferrari fanboys need to get your heads outta your asses.

Sure other teams might do team orders, its not right, but they go about it more discreetly, yes i may be a stupid hard to police rule but a rule is a rule, if you go and break it in a blatant way like Ferrari did then expect to feel the result of that.

This.
This is what I dont get.
You're all pissed cos they were too obvious about it? Is that it?
It really pisses me off seeing this mentality. We all know all teams do it, it's like that elephant in the living room nobody mentions, but we know he's there. But you want punishment cos they were a bit too obvious? I just don't get it. As long as they cover up well, it's fine for you?

The team championship is unchanged by the team order, what was changed is the driver's championship.

You don't get it either.
If you're driving for Team X, and so far this season you're not doing well, but suddenly you are in a position where you can help your team mate in his driver championship aspirations.. would you help your team mate, by doing so, creating a better atmosphere in the team, or block him and race him despite your low position, creating tension and bad moods?

Even Michael Schumacher played number 2 when he broke his leg in 1999, trying to help Eddie Irvine win the title for Ferrari, when he knew that he could not win it himself.

The first ever Malaysian GP was the host of the penultimate round, and Schumacher had recovered and replaced Salo for the race. Schumacher took pole ahead of Irvine, with Coulthard and H?kkinen third and fourth. Irvine quickly raced away, while Schumacher purposely slowed down to keep both McLarens behind. Coulthard got in front of Schumacher, only for his car to break down. Schumacher kept H?kkinen behind, and prevented him from challenging Irvine. Irvine won with Schumacher completing the Ferrari 1-2, forcing H?kkinen to settle for third.

The championship decider was in Japan. H?kkinen qualified in second, behind Schumacher while Irvine crashed in qualifying and was only fifth. H?kkinen took the lead at the start, while Irvine was fourth behind Olivier Panis. H?kkinen and Schumacher got away, while Panis held up the others. Panis was dealt with at the first round of stops, but now Irvine was behind Coulthard's McLaren. Coulthard slowed his pace, and held Irvine up, and the gap to H?kkinen increased. Irvine was finally released when Coulthard spun off, but was well over a minute behind H?kkinen. Schumacher was within 5 second of H?kkinen, and piled on the pressure but H?kkinen kept him at bay to win the race and the championship. Schumacher was second, and third for Irvine was not enough for him, but was enough to get Ferrari the Constuctors.

Both Schumacher and Coulthard trying to help their respective team mates to obtain the championship. It's called team play and I'm really surprised to read some comments from you people, because most of the times you seem to understand the sport quite well...

 

[Hazardous]

You don't get it either.
If you're driving for Team X, and so far this season you're not doing well, but suddenly you are in a position where you can help your team mate in his driver championship aspirations.. would you help your team mate, by doing so, creating a better atmosphere in the team, or block him and race him despite your low position, creating tension and bad moods?

You know what? I recon the fact that Massa was ordered to let Alonso past is going to create a lot more bad mood within the team than if he hadn't. After all, Massa has been in the team quite a while and has gone through a lot during his time with Ferrari, and I would expect him to be much closer to the team than Alonso is.


Still, I think the notion that Ferrari (or any other team) should not care about which order their drivers finish the race 'because they get maximum points for teams championship anyway is silly'. In theory it might work that way but in reality the general public cares very little about the constructor's championship and therefore the driver's title is what counts the most for the teams. Therefore it's obvious that they are going to do anything they can to take that title, and making sure Alonso finishes ahead of Massa of the two are running one behind the other is something they can quite easily do.

 

[narf]

If you're driving for Team X, and so far this season you're not doing well, but suddenly you are in a position where you can help your team mate in his driver championship aspirations.. would you help your team mate, by doing so, creating a better atmosphere in the team, or block him and race him despite your low position, creating tension and bad moods?

That's a different thing. It's fine not to be aggressive against your teammate. It's fine not to block your teammate if he is faster. It's not fine to be ordered to stop on the track to let him go by without even being considerably slower.

You helping your teammate - fine. The team fixing results - not fine.


Hazardous: While the public may care little about the constructor's championship, the teams should care a lot. It's where a lot of their money comes from.

 

[Hazardous]

Hazardous: While the public may care little about the constructor's championship, the teams should care a lot. It's where a lot of their money comes from.

I'm not saying they don't care about it. I'm saying that winning the driver's championship creates a lot more publicity than constructor's championship and publicity is what keeps the sponsors happy and justifies the manufacturer's investment in the team.

 

[narf]

I'm not saying they don't care about it. I'm saying that winning the driver's championship creates a lot more publicity than constructor's championship and publicity is what keeps the sponsors happy and justifies the manufacturer's investment in the team.

Upsetting a large portion of the viewers isn't likely to make sponsors happy, they do not only target fans of the specific team the sponsor but the entire audience.

 

[Hazardous]

Upsetting a large portion of the viewers isn't likely to make sponsors happy, they do not only target fans of the specific team the sponsor but the entire audience.

I was really referring to these kinds of team orders in more general terms, not this particular case. Obviously the amount of controversy created on sunday is not positive, in fact you could call it a PR disaster.

Then again, the general public is not going to remember much of this by the time we get to Abu Dhabi, and if Alonso wins the drivers title there by one or two points it might even be thought as good thinking.

 

[mpicco]

You know what? I recon the fact that Massa was ordered to let Alonso past is going to create a lot more bad mood within the team than if he hadn't.

The thing is a lot of people here are shouting to the 4 winds "THEY SHOULD OF RACED LULZ". What if they tangled and both crashed out? The past 2 seasons with those oversized and very low front wings it's extremely easy to break any part of it, even going over bumps (in case one of them had to cut a chicane while fighting).

That's a different thing. It's fine not to be aggressive against your teammate. It's fine not to block your teammate if he is faster. It's not fine to be ordered to stop on the track to let him go by without even being considerably slower.

Again, this argument? It's fine if they 'act it out' and are subtle about the orders?
Let me get it straight... if the engineer had said "Felipe, Fernando likes pumpkins, I repeat, Fernando likes pumpkins" and then Massa spun on purpose but rejoining behind Alonso, aka acting it out, then it becomes fine and legal and everybody happy?

 

[SchumacherM]

Again, this argument? It's fine if they 'act it out' and are subtle about the orders?
Let me get it straight... if the engineer had said "Felipe, Fernando likes pumpkins, I repeat, Fernando likes pumpkins" and then Massa spun on purpose but rejoining behind Alonso, aka acting it out, then it becomes fine and legal and everybody happy?

Bravo, you speak truth. A bunch of hypocrites, that is all that's up your ass. The fact that it was obviuos. Nothing else.

 

[the Interceptor]

Again, this argument? It's fine if they 'act it out' and are subtle about the orders?
Let me get it straight... if the engineer had said "Felipe, Fernando likes pumpkins, I repeat, Fernando likes pumpkins" and then Massa spun on purpose but rejoining behind Alonso, aka acting it out, then it becomes fine and legal and everybody happy?

It boils down to this: everybody knows there are team orders, and everybody knows they are forbidden.

So what you need to do as a team is to give the stewards/FIA a chance to "kindly ignore" a teamorder when it is applied. To do that, you need to disguise it as a normal happening or do it via the pit stops or something. The way Ferrari did it, they didn't give the stewards the opportunity to look away, because it was too obvious. Of course the Ferrari guys didn't spell it out, but it was clear to everyone what was happening there. Thus, the stewards were forced to draw their line, and so will the FIA.

Like a professor of mine used to say: "You can cheat all you want, just don't get caught."

 

[narf]

Nobody would make such a fuss if Alonso simply overtakes Felipe without Felipe fighting back. Ferrari says he was faster, so there should be no need for Felipe to stop, pull over and have a coffee break to let his chum go by.

 

[mpicco]

Ok so you get extremely pissed cos he slowed down? Has this affected you in any particular way? You would have liked seeing them fake-battle over a few corners and then Massa burning a braking point just so it looks legit?
Give me (and everyone) a break. This argument is pure smoke, has no substance to it whatsoever.
According to you, what the team orders rule should read is "Teams are allowed to issue team orders as long as they are deceiving and cunning enough so stewards and spectators don't notice. Yes indeed we are asking you to cheat better"

 

[rockvee]

If I may, let's get away from those Ferrari-fanboy-thinks-it-is-fine-because-they-are-fanboys, I want to mention this:
I think it is quite apparent that Rob Smedley is against this team order. Anyone think Rob deliberately make it too apparent by saying "Can you confirm you understood the message" and "Sorry"(along with this tone) in attempt to stop this type of team order from future(team order that against his driver)?

 

[the Interceptor]

According to you, what the team orders rule should read is "Teams are allowed to issue team orders as long as they are deceiving and cunning enough so stewards and spectators don't notice. Yes indeed we are asking you to cheat better"

Effectively, yes. I know it's ridiculous, they could as well get rid of the whole concept of banning team orders. But that's the way it is. You need to give the guys watching over the race at least a chance to look away.

You can also break the speed limit on a public road (like everyone does) and then tell the policeman who stops you that it is okay because everybody does it. What's he supposed to say? "Oh okay then, be on your way Sir!"?

If I may, let's get away from those Ferrari-fanboy-thinks-it-is-fine-because-they-are-fanboys, I want to mention this:
I think it is quite apparent that Rob Smedley is against this team order. Anyone think Rob deliberately make it too apparent by saying "Can you confirm you understood the message" and "Sorry"(along with this tone) in attempt to stop this type of team order from future(team order that against his driver)?

I think it was a top to bottom order which noone actually wanted to execute. This may play a role in how they did it...

 

[narf]

If I may, let's get away from those Ferrari-fanboy-thinks-it-is-fine-because-they-are-fanboys, I want to mention this:
I think it is quite apparent that Rob Smedley is against this team order. Anyone think Rob deliberately make it too apparent by saying "Can you confirm you understood the message" and "Sorry"(along with this tone) in attempt to stop this type of team order from future(team order that against his driver)?

Yep, both Rob and Felipe deliberately made it obvious. Compare it to Austria 2002, Rubens made it obvious as well. They obey their contracts, but they still are ego driven racing drivers so they want the world to know they were forced to pull over.

Has this affected you in any particular way?

Apart from not being able to watch a fair sporting event, no. None of us are considerably affected by F1 results.

According to you, what the team orders rule should read is "Teams are allowed to issue team orders as long as they are deceiving and cunning enough so stewards and spectators don't notice. Yes indeed we are asking you to cheat better"

No. What I am continuously saying is I don't want any team orders that fix the race results, hidden or obvious. If Alonso is faster then Felipe doesn't have to fake-fight him, he can just let Alonso's superior speed do the job. No need for a team order there - unless Felipe was not slower, and in that case the team was manipulating the race results.

 

[mpicco]

If I may, let's get away from those Ferrari-fanboy-thinks-it-is-fine-because-they-are-fanboys, I want to mention this:
I think it is quite apparent that Rob Smedley is against this team order. Anyone think Rob deliberately make it too apparent by saying "Can you confirm you understood the message" and "Sorry"(along with this tone) in attempt to stop this type of team order from future(team order that against his driver)?

Read everything that is being said. Nobody said it's fine, quite the contrary. We've been saying its not fine but its not fine with ANYBODY or ANY TEAM, the fact is that it happens, and pretending that Ferrari needs punishment because they're the 'ones to get caught'.
As I've said before, Massa is a team player, he's supported Raikkonen when he needed it, he supports now Fernando cos he has a better chance.
Have you never had a friend ask you to do something you really dont feel like doing, but you do it anyway, and then that friend says "sorry", as in "sorry to bother you" as well?
Yeah you rather be sitting on your couch drinking a beer watching a movie but you're driving him to the airport cos he needs your help. You're annoyed, but you're doing him a favor.

Effectively, yes. I know it's ridiculous, they could as well get rid of the whole concept of banning team orders. But that's the way it is. You need to give the guys watching over the race at least a chance to look away.

You can also break the speed limit on a public road (like everyone does) and then tell the policeman who stops you that it is okay because everybody does it. What's he supposed to say? "Oh okay then, be on your way Sir!"?

I think it was a top to bottom order which noone actually wanted to execute. This may play a role in how they did it...

I dont speed in public roads. Only time I got caught speeding is in a road I didnt know where there was a tight bend in a highway, which had an 80 km/h speed limit which is really rare since most of the time its 120 or 100. Once in 4 years i've been driving.

No. What I am continuously saying is I don't want any team orders that fix the race results, hidden or obvious. If Alonso is faster then Felipe doesn't have to fake-fight him, he can just let Alonso's superior speed do the job. No need for a team order there - unless Felipe was not slower, and in that case the team was manipulating the race results.

Well you're jolly well damned if you're gonna keep watching F1, team orders wont ever go away. Unless you force teams to run 1 car.
And we both know Alonso couldn't overtake him without risking anything, and it is no time for Ferrari to risk anything at all, much less a 1-2 finish.
You need about 2 seconds a lap of difference to let "speed alone take care of the overtake", otherwise you need wheel to wheel racing and I'm tired of repeating this: Ferrari (or any team unless they're mentally retarded) would not afford any risk of ruining the result just to have a pretty spectacle

 

[narf]

Have you never had a friend ask you to do something you really dont feel like doing, but you do it anyway, and then that friend says "sorry", as in "sorry to bother you" as well?
Yeah you rather be sitting on your couch drinking a beer watching a movie but you're driving him to the airport cos he needs your help. You're annoyed, but you're doing him a favor.

The analogy fails in one thing - driving someone to the airport isn't illegal. You should compare it to a friend asking you to buy some pot for him. It's illegal in most countries, many say "everyone does it", many do it and don't get caught. If however you do get caught you shouldn't go cry about it.