German Court to Free Woman That Killed US Soldier

No wonder the killing of bin Laden had people dancing in the streets, shouting "USA!" (Don't mean to open a can). Some big differences manifest on the way across the pond. For me, forgiveness is one of the cornerstones of modern society. But, and I know I will get a lot of flac for this, the States in general seem to be going backwards a bit. From what I can tell.

/Flamesuit on.

Answer me this: If someone, so full of hate, devoted their whole life to killing the people of your country and then created a plan to follow through on that by forming a worldwide organization just to slaughter as many citizens of your country as possible, would you just want them to sit in the typical jail cell for the rest of their life? Or maybe you'd just go by German standards and think he was rehabilitated after a certain amount of years?

Osama deserved to die, and though it might sound sick to you, I had a smile on my face when I saw that Osama had been killed, as millions of other Americans did. It was one of those moments you will remember where you were forever. At least be man enough and declare war in the usual way rather than being a coward and targeting civilians while hiding in your cave. Osama was a piece of fuck not deserving of the same air that any good citizen of America, or for that matter the world, breathes. If he was to be brought in, I would have wanted him tortured to no end. I'm sorry our way of life disgusts you, but that does not mean you have the right to take thousands of lives because you disagree with us.

The differences you speak of from crossing the pond are rooted in the fact that you are not an American and did not experience what we did in the same fashion. It's a giant mindfuck to think someone despises your country so much that you want to kill everyone in it. I couldn't care less what the rest of the world thinks about us celebrating the death of Osama, because 9/11 was not on their soil. If you live in the US and find issue with the celebration, that's a different story, since you are an American. I've wanted blood since the minute I saw the first plane hit the towers. I can forgive a lot, even murderers, but I cannot forgive someone like that. God bless the soldier(s) who put that shiny piece of metal through that piece of shit's dome and may they live the rest of their lives riding that high.


As you can tell, I have a bit of national pride. :D
 
Answer me this: If someone, so full of hate, devoted their whole life to killing the people of your country and then created a plan to follow through on that by forming a worldwide organization just to slaughter as many citizens of your country as possible, would you just want them to sit in the typical jail cell for the rest of their life? Or maybe you'd just go by German standards and think he was rehabilitated after a certain amount of years?

I'm not the one you addressed but if somebody would hate me that much, the first thing I'd ask myself woud be, WHY he hates me that much in the first place.

Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaida didn't come out of nowhere, you know... But that's a completely different story.
 
That's not what he meant. Look at the context.

And watch the video narf posted :)

I know what he meant, I was making a (poor) joke. The lack of a sarcasm font was an issue here.

I'm not the one you addressed but if somebody would hate me that much, the first thing I'd ask myself woud be, WHY he hates me that much in the first place.

Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaida didn't come out of nowhere, you know... But that's a completely different story.

As an American, the first thing I thought is "where's my gun?" Not really, because I was in 7th grade, but you get the point.

What you are saying, or should I say how I am interpreting what you are saying, is that given good enough reasons, it is justifiable to slaughter thousands of innocent people. Right, so good ol' Adolf was fighting for a just cause then. Got it.
 
Let me put it another way. I would not take into consideration any peaceful/regretful/remorseful/charitable acts they performed after committing murder with respect to their punishment. They could become saintly and I would still advocate the death penalty. Murder was committed and they will pay, no matter what.
Fine. Now, are you ready to answer my question about how you feel about the innocent men and women who have been killed by your society in your name?

I know I feel the greatest sorrow for every man and woman who is placed in jail because someone made a fault. If you're innocent, it's a tragedy just being sent to jail for a week. You still have to live with humilitation, and countless other issues. And it really tears me up to think about it.

How do you feel about those who are executed, but are proven innocent afterwards? Are you okay with it? I'm not asking for a political opinion. I am asking for an emotional opinion.

Answer me this: If someone, so full of hate, devoted their whole life to killing the people of your country and then created a plan to follow through on that by forming a worldwide organization just to slaughter as many citizens of your country as possible, would you just want them to sit in the typical jail cell for the rest of their life? Or maybe you'd just go by German standards and think he was rehabilitated after a certain amount of years?
Yes, I would. I suppose the question could just as well have been directed at me, so I'll give my answer.

Yes, I would. I'd love to show that bastard that he is nothing more than a simple murderer. Nothing special, not a martyr, just a simple, disgusting murderer.

Recently, one Ratko Mladic was arrested in Serbia. For those of you who do not know who he is, he was responsible for genocide in Bosnia Hercegovina in the 90s. He was the Bosnian-Serb commander at the massacre of Srebrenica. And he was the command at the siege of Sarajevo. He was responsible for thousands of civilian deaths, just at Srebrenica, the number is probably in excess of 8500 people, in a few number of days.

For several reasons, I'm deeply attached to what happened there, that day in 1995. It is one of the most disturbing things in recent history, and one of those very few things that make me really angry.

I want him to be treathed as a human being. Cause he is. I'd much rather have him sit in a cell with his companions, perhaps, just perhaps, he might realise that he is nothing more than a common killer and a thug. He deserves the best lawyers Europe can offer, we need to make sure his trial is perfect. We need to make sure his stay in prison is beyond reproach. We don't want this common, evil man to become a martyr.

As for letting people out after 25 years, we will be talking about the possible and the impossible. While someone guilty of three murders might be let out after 25 years of rehabilitation, someone like OBL would not. It would simply never happen. So it's not something to fear.

Oh, and Bad Bowtie, that comment is sny and needless. It's also a poor attempt at attacking German sensibilities over the war.

What he is trying to explain is that prevention, be it with a vaccine or social measures, are usually a better tool in fighting crime than punishment.

It's a crucial question for you guys to understand, why did these people hate you as much as they did? The simplistic Bush answers about hating freedom is not enough, by the way.

That doesn't mean he was justifiying the attacks. There is a very real and important difference between justifying something and explaining it.
 
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Fine. Now, are you ready to answer my question about how you feel about the innocent men and women who have been killed by your society in your name?

An unfortunate cost of the system however it is not a reason to give it up. As long as the number of innocents executed is kept at a bare minimum I have little problem keeping capital punishment around.

Honestly, what did you expect me to say? That because innocents have/will be executed that we should give it up?
 
Yes, I would. I suppose the question could just as well have been directed at me, so I'll give my answer.

Yes, I would. I'd love to show that bastard that he is nothing more than a simple murderer. Nothing special, not a martyr, just a simple, disgusting murderer.

Recently, one Ratko Mladic was arrested in Serbia. For those of you who do not know who he is, he was responsible for genocide in Bosnia Hercegovina in the 90s. He was the Bosnian-Serb commander at the massacre of Srebrenica. And he was the command at the siege of Sarajevo. He was responsible for thousands of civilian deaths, just at Srebrenica, the number is probably in excess of 8500 people, in a few number of days.

For several reasons, I'm deeply attached to what happened there, that day in 1995. It is one of the most disturbing things in recent history, and one of those very few things that make me really angry.

I want him to be treathed as a human being. Cause he is. I'd much rather have him sit in a cell with his companions, perhaps, just perhaps, he might realise that he is nothing more than a common killer and a thug. He deserves the best lawyers Europe can offer, we need to make sure his trial is perfect. We need to make sure his stay in prison is beyond reproach. We don't want this common, evil man to become a martyr.

As for letting people out after 25 years, we will be talking about the possible and the impossible. While someone guilty of three murders might be let out after 25 years of rehabilitation, someone like OBL would not. It would simply never happen. So it's not something to fear.

As I said before, I respect your opinion, but also disagree. Thank you for being thorough in your reply. How you are raised has a lot to do with what you believe, well, at least IMO.

Oh, and Bad Bowtie, that comment is sny and needless. It's also a poor attempt at attacking German sensibilities over the war.

What he is trying to explain is that prevention, be it with a vaccine or social measures, are usually a better tool in fighting crime than punishment.

It's a crucial question for you guys to understand, why did these people hate you as much as they did? The simplistic Bush answers about hating freedom is not enough, by the way.

That doesn't mean he was justifiying the attacks. There is a very real and important difference between justifying something and explaining it.

Though I do lean a bit Conservative, you would never hear me giving the Bush answers to the "Why did 9/11 happen" questions. In that case though, 100 times out of 100 I would have done what Bush did. Ready the troops first, ask questions later.

Someone who doesn't deserve to be in the conversation would just chalk it all up to jealousy, which is grossly wrong. However, I feel that it does play a roll in why others (not OBL) hate us with such fervor. We live in a country where living in excess isn't enough, where money is the driving factor behind most people, where any want/need/desire/whim can be satisified, and where the sky is the limit in terms of how far you want to go in any facet of life. That creates jealousy for some, but admittedly, it is on the bottom of the list.

Actually, before I go any further, I would love to hear a Europeans' reasons for "why he hated us so much".


edit: My point about letting OBL out after 25 wasn't a dig at Germany or your justice system. It is just my personal belief that some people do not need to be let out, ever. That doesn't mean they need to die, in most cases I am opposed to the death penalty. You just can't fix some people...not to mention, the fear of having your life ended may just scare some people away from doing certain things. And in my mind, that's a nice side effect.
 
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An unfortunate cost of the system however it is not a reason to give it up. As long as the number of innocents executed is kept at a bare minimum I have little problem keeping capital punishment around.

Honestly, what did you expect me to say? That because innocents have/will be executed that we should give it up?

If it means that little to you, then why even care about it when a murderer takes an innocent life.

The potential that someone innocent may end up being executed coupled with the fact that putting someone to death is outrageously more expensive than life in prison....at the moment, I can't see any logical or reasonable reason to advocate for the death penalty in the first place.

Loss of innocent life is an unacceptable risk.

*edit

Is it even possible to track how many people have been wrongfully executed? How would one know when they cross the "bare minimum"
 
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Loss of innocent life is an unacceptable risk.

I disagree. Many of my beliefs have a certain cost to them. I believe in doing away with almost all firearm regulations and laws. There would of course be a cost but one I feel is acceptable. The same applies to capital punishment. Intent does matter of course. The state is generally not looking to execute innocents. That innocents can be/are executed does not deter me from supporting it however.

I support the death penalty, what exactly did you expect me to say?
 
I disagree. Many of my beliefs have a certain cost to them. I believe in doing away with almost all firearm regulations and laws. There would of course be a cost but one I feel is acceptable. The same applies to capital punishment. Intent does matter of course. The state is generally not looking to execute innocents. That innocents can be/are executed does not deter me from supporting it however.

I support the death penalty, what exactly did you expect me to say?

That particular comment was in regards to capital punishment only.

You say you support the death penalty, but your previous post suggests that you wouldn't if too many innocent people were being killed. Since there is no way to measure that, theoretically you would still support the death penalty if only 1% of those executed are in fact truly guilty.
 
I support the death penalty as long as the number of innocents executed is kept at a bare minimum. If 99% of those being executed are innocent then I would not call that bare minimum.
 
My point is that we don't know. After a brief internet search I just conducted, I read that a little over 1000 executions have been carried out since the mid-70s. Some people have been exonerated post-humously, I don't know the number. Around 120+ people have been exonerated from death row in that same period.

I think the possibility that at the very least, 10% of those executed may very well have been innocent is not an unrealistic number.

Again, there is no way of actually knowing....the sane thing to do is err on the side of caution.
 
the sane thing to do is err on the side of caution.

While I would definitely agree with you (10% is scary and wayyy too much), I don't think we should throw the DP off the table just because of that. I've always felt it should only be kept for only the most disgusting and vile people/crimes. Killing 1 person doesn't mean you should be on death row. I can't say where the line should be drawn, but there needs to be a very well defined one drawn.
 
As an American, the first thing I thought is "where's my gun?" Not really, because I was in 7th grade, but you get the point.

What you are saying, or should I say how I am interpreting what you are saying, is that given good enough reasons, it is justifiable to slaughter thousands of innocent people. Right, so good ol' Adolf was fighting for a just cause then. Got it.

As a human being, who very likely wants to be taken serious, you should stop writing such rubbish but get some understanding of how the world functions and maybe also get some idea about history and cause and effect.

No mass murder is justified and terrorism must be fought, let me make that absolutely clear. All I'm saying is, that there is a reason behind it in most cases -- and in some cases, the terror was asked for. The USA are not exactly known to the world for handling things delicately and with foresight, you know...
 
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I have had a bit of an internal struggle, but I just have to answer, otherwise this'll just keep me occupied all day. It'll be my last comment, this argument is plain ridiculous, even if you don't realize it. I probably didn't adress all points and created numerous new ones, but I just don't have the time to make this perfectly coherent. I wish I did.

Bad Bowtie; said:
Answer me this: If someone, so full of hate, devoted their whole life to killing the people of your country and then created a plan to follow through on that by forming a worldwide organization just to slaughter as many citizens of your country as possible, would you just want them to sit in the typical jail cell for the rest of their life? Or maybe you'd just go by German standards and think he was rehabilitated after a certain amount of years?

Others have said the same, and I will say it as well. Yes, absolutely and wholeheartedly would I have preferred him to go through the justice process, with all the humiliation, pain and suffering that goes along with it, especially in your country. There are some things that are far worse than death. But then again, your beliefs say that he goes to hell, so how could you understand this. Unless you don't believe in hell, but I'm just going to assume you follow the mainstream ideas. Given that you are a Chevy fan and patriot and some of your replies, I don't think this is far fetched. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Death is an easy and absolute answer, so is walking away from a conversation. To take a slice from our history, Hitler knew this as well, so he killed himself to not be captured by the Russians. They would have killed him in the end anyways, but who knows what they would have done beforehand.

Another thing you probably don't get, given your penchant to believe things are just created, is that there are no such things as random supervillains popping up around the globe, wanting to watch the world burn, more specifically your part of it. Every human is the culmination of his existence, of his experiences. People don't just believe something out of nowhere, it always has an origin, a reason. Terrorists see plenty of reasons, because you have done and still supply enough. Try to put yourself in the shoes of an uneducated, poor Afghan or Iraqi, who sees people dying for no discernable reason all the time. Your country went to war with a whole culture based on one attack. A tragedy, sure, but imagine that happening all the time. And no couch and internet to understand what is happening. Absolutely no wonder they start hating the West.

Another thing you don't seem to understand is reading things carefully. Nobody ever claims that all people can be rehabilitated, the same as some just can't be reasoned with. Some people need to be removed from society for good, but if you can do this without exterminating that existence, why wouldn't you. Maybe there is still a role for them to play, even if it is just giving interviews and helping people understand their actions. Imagine Osama behind bars, as a source for you to really understand the problem. Not just his porn collection, which was a big hit for your country as well.

Bad Bowtie; said:
An absolutely excellent example in differences is also a very recent one, the terrible fate that has befallen Japan. When everything went wrong there, people calmly stood in a line for hours on end for food, clothes, etc. while over here, there is a sizable chunk of the population that in the same situation would be out looting for hours on end. It's pathetic and disgusting, but that just goes to show difference in culture.

Ever heard of cultural relativism? It's fine if East Asian cultures number their houses by the order they were built in, but don't excuse looting with it just being your culture. Doesn't that sadden you, that you have a culture of looting, if no armed police are around? Sorry to say this, but what the fuck is that? Time for a rethink, maybe?

Bad Bowtie; said:
More to the point, capital punishment is something that will show the difference in culture as well. Personally, as a Christian (Catholic), I think capital punishment has it's place in our society. However, I can totally see why others would disagree. There are certain people that are just too much of a danger to society to be let out. Sometimes, rotting in prison just isn't enough. The way I see it, in most cases it should be like this: Kill once, 25 years at the least. Kill twice, you kiss your freedom goodbye forever. You either rot in your cell, or depending upon severity, your life = over. That's another thing, lethal injection is too expensive. Bullets, on the other hand, are very cheap.

So you are more of an old testament christan. That's cool. Religion is so maluable and undefined nowadays, I guess you can combine even the most contradicting believes without worry. To the point, you said it yourself, some people are just too dangerous to be set free. But I don't see that as a reason to end them, just to confine them. But that is more expensive, so bullets it is. Severity of "punishment" increases with the severity of crime is a given. Noone argues that. But punishment has its useful limits. You can't oversolve a problem, once the criminal is gone he/she is gone. Be that by locking them away, rehabilitating them, or is this case their struggle ceasing to exist. Or a combination.

Bad Bowtie; said:
Would you really want a serial rapist/killer walking the streets? Sociopaths and manipulative people can easily get past the "I swear I'm no longer a danger to society" test.

Here we have that oversimplification again. Don't be stupid. I know, because I have lived a bit longer than that, what 15 or 20 years can do to you. People always change, unless they are in the same environment. If you were in jail for that time, I think you would change a fair bit. I'm sure I would. Humans have survived because of that trait, reacting to their environment. Your test "idea" I won't even comment.

Bad Bowtie; said:
What that really comes down to is the mindset of your society as a whole. Germans and Europeans are very different from Americans. For political reasons (and the price of gas), I could not live in Europe. As we all know, there are people who feel the exact opposite, and couldn't live here. I can respect that, as they should my views.

The gas prices? Armchair-fucking-mentality. Anybody could live in any western culture without problems. Most of Asia as well. Maybe you don't like certain aspects of it, but other than ideological bullshit, we're basically the same. I could live in the States, but I like Europe because it's tightly knit. I like flying two hours and having the choice of London, Paris, Vienna, Berlin, Rome, Warsaw etc. Its actually the reason I went back to Germany. And on that point:

Bad Bowtie; said:
The differences you speak of from crossing the pond are rooted in the fact that you are not an American and did not experience what we did in the same fashion. It's a giant mindfuck to think someone despises your country so much that you want to kill everyone in it. I couldn't care less what the rest of the world thinks about us celebrating the death of Osama, because 9/11 was not on their soil. If you live in the US and find issue with the celebration, that's a different story, since you are an American. I've wanted blood since the minute I saw the first plane hit the towers. I can forgive a lot, even murderers, but I cannot forgive someone like that. God bless the soldier(s) who put that shiny piece of metal through that piece of shit's dome and may they live the rest of their lives riding that high.

This one got me a bit emotional.
I lived in Canada for 6 years, starting August 2001. Ottawa 2 years, Halifax 4. I was very fortunate to be in a private boarding school in the middle of the diplomatic residence area (Ashbury College, if you want to look it up). I remember almost every minute of that September 11th. I remember how one Russian student came into our PE class, and told us a plane had flown into one of the WTC towers. We were like, yeah right. 30 mins later, things started getting serious. People were crying everywhere, watching screens in disbelief, trying to reach their parents on an overloaded cellphone network. I remember the catatonic girl who had lost her parents an hour ago. And I will never forget. There was no culture difference, EVERYONE was just... trying to hold together. I was as close as 99.9% of Americans to the disasters, and I felt their pain, every last bit of it. I also met my first great love on that day, so I also remember some positives.
What I also remember is the hate that started spewing out after Bush's adress to the nations, and how they started generalizing a whole culture right from the start. I remember a middle eastern student who was curb stomped shortly after, because of the way he looked. 3 weeks hospital for him. The school orchestra (which I was a part of) went to NY in February 2002 to play in Carnegie Hall, so unlike most US citizens I actually stood right by the big, gaping hole that was left. I still feel the little hole that picture left in me. Was interrupted by an offer for a $5 Rolex though. NY for you.
And in light of all that:

Bad Bowtie; said:
Osama deserved to die, and though it might sound sick to you, I had a smile on my face when I saw that Osama had been killed, as millions of other Americans did. It was one of those moments you will remember where you were forever. At least be man enough and declare war in the usual way rather than being a coward and targeting civilians while hiding in your cave. Osama was a piece of fuck not deserving of the same air that any good citizen of America, or for that matter the world, breathes. If he was to be brought in, I would have wanted him tortured to no end. I'm sorry our way of life disgusts you, but that does not mean you have the right to take thousands of lives because you disagree with us.

Osama deserved to be brought to justice. And I give you a smile, I give you feelings of relief or even happiness. That's all perfectly fine. After 10 years of fighting, conquest and searching, you finally got your prize, so good for you.
But dancing on the street? USA USA, as if this was some kind of sports event. You didn't win. But beneath all that, I know what group mentality is like, lies the core problem, which is signified by a picture:

xGHaU.jpg


Other than you supporting one and not the other, so your ethnocentric viewpoint, there is no difference. None. And neither is there a difference between people dancing in the streets yelling Allah Allah after terrorist attacks, which you condemn heavily, and what you did. None. I'm sure you don't see it that way, but everyone not taking part sure does.
What you are doing is exactly the same that causes your blood to boil when the other guys do it, perpetuating hatred. And it is just the same with the "an eye for an eye" philosophy, it just perpetuates a bad situation. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." -Gandhi

Final comments:
You know why America as a whole is doing not so well right now and your people want to go back to the past? It's not because the world changed, or that things are more difficult now than they were before. It's because you are not doing what is right anymore, but what is easy. That's what made the US great, doing things because they were difficult and would lead to greater things. Solving your debt crisis demands some tough choices, which you are unwilling or unable to make. Generalizing is easy, so all Muslims bad. Faith is easy. Immigrants are bad is easy. Celebrity gossip is easy. Getting fat is easy. Polling is easy. Saying "Majority rules" is easy. "Eye for an eye" is easy.
Upholding your values of justice and forgiveness is hard when your "enemy" doesn't follow them. Very hard. If someone was to kill a person I cared about in front of me, I don't assume to know what would happen. Maybe my anger and hate would win over me. But that would be a mighty personal failure, and I try my hardest not to fail myself. Serving justice to a murderer is hard. Allowing for the possibility of change and encouraging it I find easy, but I guess it can be hard. Caring for a person that doesn't care for you is hard. Being good is hard.

You may say that I'm just some elitist, pansy-assed socialist, because I don't yell "Fuck yeah!" everytime someone pulls out a gun. Or that I'm doomed and unworthy anyways, because I don't believe in ludicrous fairytails. I've had my fair share of fights and pain (emo. & phys.), feared for my life, fired numerous guns (Desert Eagle .50 AE hurts like a bitch), I had 10 years of religion classes and evangelical kindergarten before that. I've been to over 20 different countries, not just on the beach. 18 years of education. I've been through the process long enough, I've seen all the sides and I think I'm on the right track to be a good human being.
 
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Well said but I hope you aren't so optimistic to believe it will all be read and internalized. Remaining ignorant and blind towards inconvenient truths is, after all, the easiest thing of them all.

I cannot help but think, that the way the OP chose the headline for this thread, also added a lot to the heat of the discussion. I think it's not a really bad guess, that the discussion would have been different, if she had killed a French, Italian, Spanish, Russian or German soldier.

Probably the thread wouldn't exist at all then.
 
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Well said but I hope you aren't so optimistic to believe it will all be read and internalized. Remaining ignorant and blind towards inconvenient truths is, after all, the easiest thing of them all.

I cannot help but think, that the way the OP chose the headline for this thread, also added a lot to the heat of the discussion. I think it's not a really bad guess, that the discussion would have been different, if she had killed a French, Italian, Spanish, Russian or German soldier.

Probably the thread wouldn't exist at all then.

I will earn negrep for this..

In case you wondered: Jetsetter (and some others) seems to like discrediting other nations than his by pointing out their "inferior" systems, they basically are what the Ferrari fans are to the F1 section.
However, there are also a lot of reasonable Americans in here, which generally gives me hope in humanity. Sadly though, many of these "patriots" seem to see America's biggest achievement lately in being attacked by Osama, because they justify everything they do with it. "You started an illegal war" "Well we got attacked by Osama", "You have your rights as citizens taken away" "Well we got attacked by Osama", "You execute prisoners" "Well we got attacked by Osama". I remember a time when they referred to their real history....... I guess it has something to do with the fear of America's shield of invincibilty suddenly penetrated by some "inferior" desert people. You just don't seem to be used to the theory that you just aren't safe from losing wars (Vietnam, anyone?) or getting attacked on your home turf, something all European nations already experienced (WW1,2, IRA, RAF, ETA, Greenpeace). Maybe this even aided the development of our nations, as we learnt from it, but all some of you want to do is go batshit crazy, shoot everyone that remotely looks like he doesn't like you, torture prisoners of war even without trials and violate every treaty on warfare in existence. And ruin your country in the meantime with all the spending. And then you wonder again, why does noone like you any more? How can they not like a nation so charming?

It really gives me hope that 99% of the Americans I met IRL or especially here on FinalGear are NOT like what I described above put perfectly sane people who do realize that not everything a government does it what the people want. And that not everything is better than what other countries produce just because it has a "Made in the USA" label.
 
An unfortunate cost of the system however it is not a reason to give it up. As long as the number of innocents executed is kept at a bare minimum I have little problem keeping capital punishment around.

Honestly, what did you expect me to say? That because innocents have/will be executed that we should give it up?
I expected you to be a normal chap with the normal emotions of a normal chap. Cause then you'd feel terrible sorrow over the innocent deaths in your name. I didn't expect you to drop capital punishment over it. But I did expect sorrow. And I don't see it.

As I said before, I respect your opinion, but also disagree. Thank you for being thorough in your reply. How you are raised has a lot to do with what you believe, well, at least IMO.
What's the point of a discussion if people don't disagree? :p

Though I do lean a bit Conservative, you would never hear me giving the Bush answers to the "Why did 9/11 happen" questions. In that case though, 100 times out of 100 I would have done what Bush did. Ready the troops first, ask questions later.
Yeah, but one doesn't exclude the other, you know. :)

Someone who doesn't deserve to be in the conversation would just chalk it all up to jealousy, which is grossly wrong. However, I feel that it does play a roll in why others (not OBL) hate us with such fervor. We live in a country where living in excess isn't enough, where money is the driving factor behind most people, where any want/need/desire/whim can be satisified, and where the sky is the limit in terms of how far you want to go in any facet of life. That creates jealousy for some, but admittedly, it is on the bottom of the list.

Actually, before I go any further, I would love to hear a Europeans' reasons for "why he hated us so much".
Well, I've never hated the US. I've hated some US foreign policy. If I were alive and adult during Vietnam, I'd opose it. I did opose the Iraq war (and even once made the argument that the war was a war of agression, which is in itself a war crime by the instigating party), but I supported Afghanistan.

I don't think the US has acted even close to wisely towards Israel, giving the nation way too much leaway, leading to a lot of the problems we're experiencing today. I don't like the US arrogance, feeling above it all. I don't like the fact that the US talks about freedom, forgetting about Senator McCarthy.

To mention a few things.

However, Europeans don't hate the US. We're ambivilant towards it. We find you a little vulgar, sometimes arrogant on the world stage. And some might even have a little bit of inferiority complex.

But we don't hate you.

edit: My point about letting OBL out after 25 wasn't a dig at Germany or your justice system. It is just my personal belief that some people do not need to be let out, ever. That doesn't mean they need to die, in most cases I am opposed to the death penalty. You just can't fix some people...not to mention, the fear of having your life ended may just scare some people away from doing certain things. And in my mind, that's a nice side effect.
Is there anything that suggests that it's a deterrant? If I'm not mistaken, crime was pretty rampant during the bloody code (you could be hanged for stealing property more expensive than 12 pence), and I don't think I've heard of it working.

:p
 
Personally, as a Christian (Catholic), I think capital punishment has it's place in our society.

As a Catholic you probably are familiar with the phrase "You shall not kill".
As soon as the criminal is apprehended, locking him away forever sufficiently protects society from him - no need for an exception of the commandment.

Would you really want a serial rapist/killer walking the streets? Sociopaths and manipulative people can easily get past the "I swear I'm no longer a danger to society" test.

That's why the parole decision is a tad more complicated than asking the prisoner if he's a good boy now.


I could not care less. Better? I suggest moving on from the grammar mistake.

One man's grammar mistake is another man's complete opposite of what was intended.


Answer me this: If someone, so full of hate, devoted their whole life to killing the people of your country and then created a plan to follow through on that by forming a worldwide organization just to slaughter as many citizens of your country as possible, would you just want them to sit in the typical jail cell for the rest of their life? Or maybe you'd just go by German standards and think he was rehabilitated after a certain amount of years?

The German standards for life sentences you mention do not say "You're rehabilitated after serving X years". You need to convince a court that you won't commit any more serious crimes. They'll examine every detail of your known life.

Someone you described, devoting his life to killing, will not succeed with his parole application. That's what a legal system is for.


The differences you speak of from crossing the pond are rooted in the fact that you are not an American and did not experience what we did in the same fashion. It's a giant mindfuck to think someone despises your country so much that you want to kill everyone in it. I couldn't care less what the rest of the world thinks about us celebrating the death of Osama, because 9/11 was not on their soil.

You didn't invent capital punishment after 9/11.


I know what he meant, I was making a (poor) joke. The lack of a sarcasm font was an issue here.

FTFY.
 
It'd be interesting to see how true to his convictions jetsetter would be if wrongly convicted of murder. Everything is different when the shoe is on the other foot.
 
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