German Court to Free Woman That Killed US Soldier

Okay, ignoring the polemics, there is a question I want to ask you:

According to your data on the left, you are 41 years old. When you look back on your life, especially when you were younger and unwiser than today, is there nothing you would have better not done or done differently in hindsight?

Well, it all depends on how much time you have for me to list that, cause we could be here for quite a while. ;)

What if for example with 22 years you ran over a child while driving drunk? Wouldn't you say today, that it was a terrible mistake and that you learned your lesson the hard way and shouldn't be punished for the rest of your life? Wouldn't you beg for forgiveness?

Of course I would, I'm human. But going by the above situations, it still would all depend. Of course, either way, a child is dead.

Was I out with friends and made a snap bad decision to drive when I thought I was okay and this happened? With no history of ever doing something like this? (Still no excuse) Or was I like the one guy here in Ohio who has had over 18 DUI's and was still driving without a license for over 20 years before he killed someone?

The first, while terrible was the result of bad judgement, not with the intent of doing harm. Although, everyone on the planet knows that drunk driving is wrong.

The second shows the actions of a man who just doesn't give a shit. He will drink and drive again, and has flat out said so in front of several judges. You can take a license from someone, but unless you hide every car in the country, they will drive again. And in doing so, is willingly and knowingly repeatedly putting others in harms way.

So, as far as punishment goes.

In the first case, absolutely jail time is warranted. Along with severe restrictions on driving privileges after their time is served. And some sort of ongoing involvement in giving back to the community. This wont bring back the child, but clearly there was no intent to take a life.

In the second case, I do think that that person should be in jail for life. He clearly has no remorse, or just enough till he drinks again. Letting him back out in public is just a ticking time bomb in my opinion. As did happen in this case...

Funny enough, in Germany, if you are caught drink driving, your license is taken away for life, isn't that correct? What about forgiveness there? (Just to add, that I pretty much agree with that policy)


This isn't too far off, you know. Hogefeld wasn't drunk but she was indoctrinated. Yes, she committed murder. No one is denying that what she did, was terrible. BUT she recieved her punishment. She was arrested after the Iron Curtain fell, after the was forced to live in former Eastern Germany for years (which alone could be considered severe punishment) and spent many years in prison.

This is not about whether she should be punished or not, because she was punished. This thread is about if she should be punished more.

I'm not sure where I stand on the whole "indoctrinated" stories. Yes, you can be fed the same story over and over, but you're still an adult.

And admittedly I'm guessing on this part...but was she aware of who these people were and what they did when she first joined? I find it hard to think that someone would join a group like this who were so vocal about their beliefs and then be surprised when they ask her to help kill people.

And here comes the bitter truth for everyone, who thinks it is a particularly devious act of murder to kill a US solder, so how can we dare letting that woman loose:.

The fact this is a soldier doesn't make it worse in my opinion. I come from a huge military family, and we believe that when you take your oaths, you are willingly putting yourself in harms way. We understand that in the line of duty, bad crap can happen.

For me, it wasn't that it was solder who died that appalls me, it's the mindset of the person who would willingly intend to kill and maim as many people as possible just because they didn't get their way with something in their life.


Just because you've been a good girl while in prison and did some studying does change the fact that you were part of a group that did terrible things, not just once, but repeatedly.


I understand that we have different views on this, but I just ask you to respect my opinions as I respect yours. Sometimes, there really is no "right" answer in cases like this. :)
 
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Pretty much every German student is using taxpayer dollars.


As is the case here in the States. I have no idea how the whole student loan, application and 'random stuff needed' process goes in Germany, but if it's like it is here in the States...how many people who have obeyed the laws, and did their best to study and get good grades in school, have been unable to get these funds?

Here, no matter what you did to end up in prison, you pretty much have a free ride to get any degree you want. For the ones you can do online, that is. We have murderers who are in for life (really really for life) who are working on their Doctoral degrees.

While we have thousands of hard working and well deserving kids who'll never get to go to college because there's not enough money to go around.
 
This just goes on and on and I can't help myself. 2 things:

1. Why is getting a degree in prison a bad thing? Rather than lifting weights, doing gang stuff, reading religious texts, becoming depressed or hateful. They are in prison anyways, I don't see how a couple of proper books and some teachers, if any, are going to add to the cost significantly. More to the point, people getting a degree, new job skills etc. doesn't just make them more useful for the society they have "harmed", but are great and proven ways to rehabilitate and reintegrate. Economic pressures are one of the chief reasons of crime in general.

2. I'm not going to go back and look it up, but some people said that it is "unavoidable" (however you want to put it) for innocent people to be executed in a capital punishment system. But on the other hand it is not acceptable for innocent people to be killed in the off-chance that rehabilitated criminals are merely good liars and got out of jail early (or however you want to put that). I'm having trouble squaring those two. The difference seems kind of arbitrary, there is a low, random, unpredictable chance of innocent people getting killed. Except one system always kills someone, the other doesn't.

Ok, 3 things.
3. If the kids in your country don't have enough money for college, pay more taxes (or ask your many corporations to pay some) or spend less on bombs. Super simple answers to that problem exist. Oh wait no, there are totally some reasons that wouldn't work. How about some of the profits that the prison system makes? Ah, wtf do I know.

Need to get the hell out of here. :D
 
As is the case here in the States. I have no idea how the whole student loan, application and 'random stuff needed' process goes in Germany, but if it's like it is here in the States...how many people who have obeyed the laws, and did their best to study and get good grades in school, have been unable to get these funds?

It's actually quite simple.

First, you need a better version of a highschool diploma, pass 13 years of school to go to proper universities or 12 years for applied science universities.
Second, going to uni is basically free. I paid about 100? per semester, and most of that goes towards the bus pass (for comparison, an equivalent pass for one instead of six months as an adult is 66? - good deal IMO).
Third, applying is open for many subjects, restricted by your final grade from school for others. If you want to study a restricted subject (best example: medicine) and your grade is too bad you can either wait or pick another subject. For unrestricted subjects you just go there and immatriculate.
Fourth, there is a "student loan"-ish system, but IMO it's far superior to a loan. You can apply for BAf?G support, it will be granted depending on your parent's income. If they make a lot of money they are expected to fully support you. If they don't, BAf?G will supplement that with varying amounts. This also depends on your siblings, I was eligible for a bit while both my brother and sister were immatriculated, but became non-eligible once they were finished. My parents officially had less supporting to do, hence less need for me to recieve government money.
Most importantly, 50% of BAf?G is a gift. The other 50% is a zero-interest loan, repayable slowly a few years after you get your degree if you earn money. You get discounts for getting a very good degree, for repaying faster, single parents discount, etc etc etc.

Basically, almost everyone can afford to study - not having the proper "highschool" diploma is a larger hurdle than moniez.
 
Sorry but this nagged me. Usually you pay at least about 200? and, depending on the State, 500? extra.

Go study in a better state then. When I started, the semester fee was around 95?. For the next semester it's 104.5?: http://www.studservice.uni-kiel.de/semesterbeitrag.shtml - of that, 51? is for the bus pass, 45.5? goes towards the Studentenwerk (they do food and shelter for students for cheap), and 8? goes towards the AStA (basically student government).
 
Been watching Louis Theroux's documentaries, found them really interesting (frightening). This one was on topic, I thought I'd share for those interested.


And a German one, but it is sadly only in German.
 
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This just goes on and on and I can't help myself. 2 things:

1. Why is getting a degree in prison a bad thing?

It's not necessarily a bad thing, but I just cant see why we should spend thousands of dollars for someone to get not just one degree, but multiple ones, when they're supposed to be in jail "for life". Or just because they're bored. It's prison, not a vacation.

2. I'm not going to go back and look it up, but some people said that it is "unavoidable" (however you want to put it) for innocent people to be executed in a capital punishment system.

This is a good point actually. We have had several men freed from jail who were finally proved innocent due to the progression of science.

I will fully admit that I am a total hypocrite when it comes to the death penalty.

I think that taking anothers life for whatever reason is repulsive. Due to my religious beliefs, I do believe that no one has the right to take another life. I dislike having to work my butt off all my life to get ahead, and yet some rapist or murder is sitting in a fairly comfy cell, watching TV and working on getting yet another degree because hes bored. But, I don't think the State has the right to take his life.

One one hand, there are many people who are in prison on flimsy evidence. And yet, there are many more who are there for utterly obvious reasons. Which one is which? Thats a terrible risk to take.

On the other hand, if someone hurt one of my kids, and I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt who it was....you'd never find their body.

Ok, 3 things.
3. If the kids in your country don't have enough money for college, pay more taxes (or ask your many corporations to pay some) or spend less on bombs.

I pay plenty of taxes, and I don't buy bombs myself, nor do I really have any say so on that subject. Wish I did though...:p

Basically, almost everyone can afford to study - not having the proper "highschool" diploma is a larger hurdle than moniez.

Then your system works better than ours, because it's getting to the point that even the local community colleges are almost out of reach, price wise, for most people.

The ones that do graduate tend to do so already saddled with massive debt that takes years if not decades to pay off. All while you're still struggling in a crap job market.
 
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Thanks for the answers. :)

People being hypocritical and fine with that seems to be a big trend is this thread. That's a fun foundation :blink:. Especially when it comes to, what is it, the FIRST commandment? As Ramsey would say: fuck me, seriously.
EDIT: It's actually No. 5 or 6. But the first 3 are just preface, really, so who's counting. source

You pay enough taxes? Enough for what? For what you get.

Education is a tool and giving people a degree isn't actually expensive if you don't measure it by the standards set by universities. Highschool degrees or B.A.s don't cost $75k.
And it may not seem fair that you have to work harder, but 1) the world isn't fair, and 2) dealing with problems costs resources. In this, as most cases, that is money. Take the opportunity and invest intelligently.

Bit pushy: If you find it so unfair, then steal a bit of money and go to prison. You get free healthcare thrown in, which prisoners probably don't deserve either. I'd rather work a bit harder and be free. :) How American of me.
 
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Then your system works better than ours, because it's getting to the point that even the local community colleges are almost out of reach, price wise, for most people.

The ones that do graduate tend to do so already saddled with massive debt that takes years if not decades to pay off. All while you're still struggling in a crap job market.

Here's an example of how it can work after you graduate. My sister graduated in 2007, she did recieve some BAf?G money. Half of that is hers to keep, half needs to be paid back. She wanted to pay it back immediately after graduation (you could say the system is flawed, she got BAf?G money but didn't need it to survive university...), but they didn't want it yet. In late 2010 they wrote her a letter stating that now she is allowed to start paying it back if she is earning money. She decided to pay it all back in one lump, and recieved a hefty discount - sort of inverse interest.

Additionally, if you graduate within the top 30% of your class and finish on time (sort-of tough to do) you get a 25% discount. If you are up to 6 months late you get a 20% discount (I believe I'll be within this category :dance:), up to 12 months still is a 15% discount.
If you finish early, you get 1025? discount for 2-4 months early or 2560? discount for over 4 months early.
If you earn little money (up to 1000?/month after taxes if single with no kids, more if married or with kids) you don't have to pay anything back yet.
You have twenty years time to pay it back.
After discounts you only have to pay up to 10000? back, if for some reason you would have to pay more the rest is discounted. This especially targets very poor families, since you get more during your studies if your parents earn less, or students with kids.


There are problems within the system, but overall it works quite well.


Bit pushy: If you find it so unfair, then steal a bit of money and go to prison. You get free healthcare thrown in, which prisoners probably don't deserve either. I'd rather work a bit harder and be free. :) How American of me.

Dunno if you were aware of that... very recently an American robbed a bank for $1 because he had no healthcare. Being in prison would have fixed that.
Too bad he didn't steal more, he was not tried for bank robbery but for larceny. That means less time with healthcare :lol:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/nc-man-allegedly-robs-bank-health-care-jail/story?id=13887040
 
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Thanks for the answers. :)

People being hypocritical and fine with that seems to be a big trend is this thread. That's a fun foundation :blink:. Especially when it comes to, what is it, the FIRST commandment? As Ramsey would say: fuck me, seriously.

I never said it was right. I was just being honest. Sounds trite, but having kids of my own has changed the way I look at things around me. :) Again, I'm not saying that it's right, I'm just saying thats how I feel.




You pay enough taxes? Enough for what? For what you get.

I could soooo go on a whole nother bender on that one, but I do pay my taxes like I'm supposed to. I actually would have no problem at all with them going up, if I knew it was going for the right things...streets, schools, general infrastrusture..ect.

I do what I can on that front by voting my thoughts on that. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. And yes, I do realize that we in general here in America don't pay as much as people in other countries.

And it may not seem fair that you have to work harder, but 1) the world isn't fair, and 2) dealing with problems costs resources. In this, as most cases, that is money. Take the opportunity and invest intelligently.

:lol:

I have no problem with working harder, it's the American way. :p

But I do have a problem with working my butt off with 70 hour work weeks while going to school part-time to finish my BA, while taking care of the house, kids, and my mother...and the cats while home-schooling my youngest son. I plan on sleeping sometime next month, maybe. ;)

All while some schmuck who's latest contribution to the world was to rape and/or murder someone gets to get his or her college degrees for free. If these people ever do get released, you think they have to pay that money back?

Hell no. But you and I do. Sorry, I don't agree with that.


Bit pushy: If you find it so unfair, then steal a bit of money and go to prison. You get free healthcare thrown in, which prisoners probably don't deserve either. I'd rather work a bit harder and be free. :) How American of me.

No thanks, I don't break the law so I wont have to worry about that. And yes, the whole "work harder and be free" IS an American concept. Thanks for noticing. :p

She wanted to pay it back immediately after graduation (you could say the system is flawed, she got BAf?G money but didn't need it to survive university...), but they didn't want it yet. In late 2010 they wrote her a letter stating that now she is allowed to start paying it back if she is earning money.

I had to read that twice to make sure I had read it correctly.

The idea that the government/bank didn't want to be paid back yet...and then asked if she wanted to start paying now....just blew me away!

I have to agree, if we had a system like that here, it would be so much better. :cool:
 
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I had to read that twice to make sure I had read it correctly.

The idea that the government/bank didn't want to be paid back yet...and then asked if she wanted to start paying now....just blew me away!

I have to agree, if we had a system like that here, it would be so much better. :cool:

The idea is you get a few years after graduation to get up on your feet, start earning money, build a life, get some savings. Then you have the choice of either paying monthly rates, or at any point to pay the remainder at once. The more you pay at once, the more discount you get - just like with interest, the faster you pay the less you pay.
On average, most graduates are not able to pay back the loaned half straight after graduation, allowing for that would simply increase bureaucracy overhead.

From a government's point of view, this simply is an investment. You pay some money, in return you get a portion of it back and you get an educated member of society (or, if you dislike government, a well-earning tax payer). Retroactively almost every student pays for his own education through the taxes paid later. That's a slow process though, and does not burden a fresh graduate with huge debt.
We have a word for such a thing, Generationenvertrag - contract between generations. One generation has the benefit now while another generation is paying now. Later, the benefitting generation is paying while another generation benefits. Education, the working people pay for the young generation - later those young people will pay for the next generation's education through taxes. Pensions, the working people pay for the older generation - later they will recieve while the younger generation pays. Works as long as your population does not grow too old on average. Too few benefactors, too many beneficiaries.

From a tax payer's point of view the system works well too. Society as a whole improves when smart people get to go to university, (almost) irregardless of whether their parents can pay for it or not. This may sound mean, but just look at Dubya. Something tells me being a rich legacy has helped him a lot throughout his life - maybe the world would be a better place if he was less rich but smarter in return?

From a student's point of view it obviously is great. No need to elaborate, I guess :)

From my point of view, I got a few k? without needing them to survive. After discounts about two thirds will remain mine, and about one third will be paid back in one lump in about two years time.
 
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The idea is you get a few years after graduation to get up on your feet, start earning money, build a life, get some savings. Then you have the choice of either paying monthly rates, or at any point to pay the remainder at once. The more you pay at once, the more discount you get - just like with interest, the faster you pay the less you pay.

Yeah, that sounds like it makes too much sense to ever be implemented here...:p


On average, most graduates are not able to pay back the loaned half straight after graduation, allowing for that would simply increase bureaucracy overhead.

Yep. And a big reason why so many people who want to further their education...just cant afford to.


Fresh out of college, probably also just starting a family, scrabbling for a job...and the bank sending you those monthly, oh so friendly reminders that you're so hip deep in debt that your credit is getting screwed just because you tried to get ahead in life.

Oh joy. ;)
 
Irish immigrant hanged in 1845 receives Rhode Island pardon

(Reuters) - Rhode Island's governor formally pardoned on Wednesday an Irish immigrant hanged in 1845 for murder under questionable circumstances amid the ethnic and class tensions of the time.


John Gordon was the last person ever executed in Rhode Island, a decade and a half before the start of the U.S. civil war.

The state banned the death penalty in 1984, 166 years after Gordon was put to death in the gallows, located in Providence.

A proclamation officially pardoning Gordon was signed by independent Governor Lincoln Chafee, who was joined at the ceremony at the old State House by Democratic state Representative Peter Martin, sponsor of a House resolution urging the pardon, and Senate sponsor, Democrat Michael McCaffrey.

"John Gordon was put to death after a highly questionable judicial process and based on no concrete evidence," Chafee said, adding: "There is no question he was not given a fair trial. Today we are trying to right that injustice."

Chafee also said Gordon's "wrongful execution was a major factor in Rhode Island's abolition of and longstanding opposition to the death penalty."

Gordon, member of a fast-growing Irish Roman Catholic immigrant community in the Northeast, was hanged for allegedly murdering Amasa Sprague, a member of a prominent Rhode Island family that included Sprague's brother, former governor and later U.S. senator William Sprague.

But from the very beginning, controversy swirled over Gordon's guilt during a time of strong anti-immigrant sentiment.

According to historical reporting, the crime inflamed tensions between Rhode Island's mostly Yankee Protestants and the newly arrived Irish, who had been flocking there to work in the thriving textile mills.

When Sprague's body was found brutally beaten on New Year's Day, 1844 on a snowy Cranston road connecting his factory and his mansion, three local Irish brothers stood quickly accused: Nicholas, John and William Gordon.

A conspiracy theory that may have been based more on bigotry and class warfare than hard evidence was formed in which Nicholas was said to have held a grudge against Sprague, with John and William accomplices in an alleged revenge killing.

The brothers were each charged with murder but only John was found guilty, a conviction based on contradictory evidence, according to notes from the trial's judge, Job Durfee, which later came to light.

But Durfee may have influenced the jurors to convict Gordon anyway, instructing them "to give greater weight to Yankee witnesses than Irish witnesses."
 
It's just a pity we can't send letters of condolance to the jury who convicted him and the judge who condemned him. Since they're dead.
 
Irish immigrant hanged in 1845 receives Rhode Island pardon

The state banned the death penalty in 1984, 166 years after Gordon was put to death in the gallows, located in Providence.

1845 to 1984 isn't 166 years. That'd be 2011.
 
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