I call bollocks on their used car prices

Spectre's awesome Jag is a remnant from a long lost era. It's very hard to service relatively new cars yourself. Honestly, everytime I see a mechanic break out the diagnosis tools(different ones for each make) I'm a little bit scared. A couple of years ago(ok, decades, really), I barely managed to replace an indicator light bulb on my Golf MkII. It has not easily accessible. Today I think that's the least of your worries.

To be blunt, that's less the function of modern technology and more caused by idiot engineers who refuse to take serviceability into account when designing their vehicles. German engineers are especially guilty of this; I have owned several German cars (the last being a BMW E32 750iL) and on most of them it is apparent that the engineers did not believe that there was any possible way for the majority of parts to ever break or fail and therefore things like window regulators and tracks would never need to be removed. Likewise, they didn't seem to think that the battery in the E32 would ever fail because when it does, you can't get into the car without major jumping through hoops (and another battery, and some specialized knowledge), and then changing the damn thing is a huge pain in the arse. It gets worse as you get closer to the present day; see katwalk's Beetle convertible and the absolutely insane and nigh-unserviceable design they used for power actuation of the top (diagrams have been posted to FG).

British engineers can be about as obtuse at times, but they're constrained by the cultural knowledge that anything British made is prone to failure and may need to be replaced. My 95 XJR, despite being a much newer design, is still a joy to work on. My former 00 XKR was similarly nice.

American engineers also don't seem to be afflicted with the problem nearly as badly. You can't say that the 2011 Corvette is less advanced than a 3 series in terms of systems and electronics, yet they are extremely easy to work on and the 3-series isn't these days (just ask Der Stig of this forum). And therefore, easily modified. Same deal with the CTS-V vice the 5-series. The quintessential American pony car, the Mustang, is still easy to service and maintain.

Japanese designs can be hit or miss. The old Z31 was easy to work on, the successor Z32 was terrible to service, but the Z33 wasn't bad.

As for the diagnostics, I rather prefer the capabilities of the later systems - it cuts way down on the amount of time you have to spend troubleshooting and diagnosing.

What I take away form this thread is that there apparantly still people who want a sunroof in a car......I can't recall the last time I have SEEN a new car with a sunroof.

They were everywere in the 80's, you could even buy aftermarket kits for a DIY job (wich ALWAYS ended badly) , then they just disappeared.

Sunroofs and moonroofs are still very popular here and are common options on cars - some cars even come standard with them. The DIY jobs are mostly extinct but there are some firms still offering them and they have come a long way since the 80s.

You can even get trucks with factory sunroofs now.

My next vehicle purchase probably won't have one (9th gen F350s didn't have a sunroof as an option) but I'll likely add one. Easier to spot the airborne speed patrols with one, as well as escape if the thing rolls over.
 
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To be blunt, that's less the function of modern technology and more caused by idiot engineers who refuse to take serviceability into account when designing their vehicles. German engineers are especially guilty of this; I have owned several German cars (the last being a BMW E32 750iL) and on most of them it is apparent that the engineers did not believe that there was any possible way for the majority of parts to ever break or fail and therefore things like window regulators and tracks would never need to be removed.
...
This is by design to force out independent dealers/shops. The big German brands LOVE to micromanage their dealers. In the Mannheim area there is only one Audi dealer. Audi pushed the others into bankruptcy. At least that is what I'm told. If you want an Audi and you live in Mannheim you will have to buy from one dealer. And they know they have no competition. Just connect the dots...
Just remember this policy whenever you think about buying one. They like to stay in touch with you after you bought your car from them. Perhaps they want to gather usage data so they can tweak their cars? I'm not totally sure about this but I think I read something to that effect a couple of years ago. Dunno how that's supposed to work so it could be completely made up.

In case you were a daft ijit and bought a Q5 then in touch you will stay...
 
What I take away form this thread is that there apparantly still people who want a sunroof in a car......I can't recall the last time I have SEEN a new car with a sunroof.

I just checked on an german website for used cars and allowed only e class from 2010 and 2011, could not find one without that option on the first page.
I would really claim that an e class 6 cyl. with a manual gearbox and no sunroof is absolutely worthless on the used car market. you would end up paying the people to take it away.

That is actually quiet interesting I never thought of differences in car markets beside bashing the stupid yank idea of a cup holder in a car. :lol:
 
Just remember this policy whenever you think about buying one.

I need not remember that. I owned an E32 - that's enough to put most people off later German cars more or less permanently. If that wasn't enough, the absolutely stupid engineering reminiscent of the E32 that I saw in Der Stig's E46 when he came up to have me help him with his car earlier this year plus the ever declining quality rankings here makes me never want to own anything German newer than the W124.

What German idiot thought it was a good idea to go back to the replaceable element oil filter... And then mounted the filter canister on the top front of the engine?!? That's not going to result in oil spills or leaks or anything.... Oh wait, it does. Right onto the one thing in your engine bay that hates oil the most - the alternator.

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I have bought running vehicles for less than what BMW wants for that alternator. And when that housing leaks (and apparently it always ends up leaking) you get to strip out a quarter or so of the engine bay to replace the entire housing assembly.
 
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The big German brands LOVE to micromanage their dealers.

honestly, I am done with (german) official car dealers. my bmw is basically a brand new car (bought it at the age of 3 months, cash from bmw) a marten thought that my cooling hoses are an anger managment device and punched a few holes in one of them. that is partially down to bad design from bmw. all it needs is a wire cross above the drivetrain and martens could not get into the engine compartment (something VW sells for some of there cars as a 150? extra, that is propably the average income for VW created by martens per car). however, this hose is in every 4 cylinder diesel engine bmw offers (all 16d, 18d, 20d, 23d in every model have that). you have to wait two days for them to get the spare part. an item which they charge 29?+VAT for. because they don't stock pile any spares, no matter how common they are.
two days without a car because of something I could fix myself in under 10 minutes, if I could get hold of that stupid part. well I had them order it but did not bring the car in and changed it myself. I would have been willing to pay them 50-80? for doing the job and cleaning the car (thats the only thing they are good at).
They behave like gods because they know you have no choice, where do you want to go else for a bmw spare then bmw.
 
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Yes I have a mate who owns a Merc van, his day job is a taxi driver - he does not use his Merc for that but they changed the arrangements for dealer service so it is all part of Merc - quality of both the cars and the service declined but the costs did not.

Mercedes are only now starting to recover on the design and build quality but the dealers (well around here) have the reputation still of being very expensive, and in comparison say to Lexus, rubbish at service.

Oh and I do not think that a native English (British type) speaker would'nt say, as quoted from above:

I call bollocks on their used car prices

I would say "The used car prices quoted on TG this week are a load of (old) bollocks!" Old being optional.
 
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Honestly, this is among many reasons I mistrust several brands.

I marvelled when they tried to convert that Renault Avantime to improve its track time. IIRC they took the engine apart, cleaned it and reassembled it and got back to nearly the original perfomance. I dare you to do that with an M3.
 
What I take away form this thread is that there apparantly still people who want a sunroof in a car......I can't recall the last time I have SEEN a new car with a sunroof.

They were everywere in the 80's, you could even buy aftermarket kits for a DIY job (wich ALWAYS ended badly) , then they just disappeared.

Interesting as this doesn't seem to be the case over here, it's still a popular option. My mother's last minivan (Nissan Quest) had 5!
 
Oh, great. An OP with a huge red blob collection and now a sunroof pissing contest. Brilliant! :(
 
Oh, great. An OP with a huge red blob collection and now a sunroof pissing contest. Brilliant! :(

I know what you mean and I feel your pain, but...pop-up lamps? Sunroof? Just think about it....
Marvellous, isn't it?
 
I might add that some U.S. cars are designed to be modified by buyers like the Mustang. IRS is an easy bolt on for '79-'04 Mustangs for instance.
 
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I might add that some U.S. cars are designed to be modified by buyers like the Mustang. IRS is an easy bolt on for '79-'04 Mustangs for instance.

Or they could fit IRS from the start? Thats forced modified by owners.
 
Or they could fit IRS from the start? Thats forced modified by owners.

The SVT Cobras came stock with IRS. Even with a solid axel my Mustang would run circles around my old Volvo 850T. It isn't a huge handicap like Clarkson and co. like to make it out to be.
 
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Yeah, and while the stick axle is something I'm not fond of, those thinking that IRS = automatically worlds better need to look at this:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests...stang_gt_vs_2011_bmw_m3_comparison/index.html

2011 Mustang GT versus 2011 BMW M3. The M3 wins by a hair... but if you factor in the enormous price difference and the fact that the 'average Joe' driver was not able to extract anywhere near the same performance from the M3 as he was from the Mustang - yeah, that's not a real win for the BMW. For the price delta, you can bolt on tons of upgrades and wallop the M3 at anything you choose to do - and still have thousands left over.

M3 as tested price: $67,025
GT as tested price: $40,275

Given the infinitesimal edge over the GT, it's hard to see where the nigh-$27000 difference is going.
 
Before this goes where I think this may go, not everyone wants to pay $27,000 for a luxury car interior. Hell Ferrari charges more for a stripped out interior.
 
The M3's interior is slightly better than the GT's, but not much. The GT's come a long, long way.

It certainly isn't a $27,000 better interior.
 
The M3's interior is slightly better than the GT's, but not much. The GT's come a long, long way.

It certainly isn't a $27,000 better interior.

This whole "whyz the ///M so much more expensive than the ford ololol" argument is kind of tiresome.

Economy of scale accounts for a big part of the difference in price. Ford builds as many Mustang GTs in six months as BMW plans to build of the entire E9x-generation M3. Plus, Ford has way more leverage with its suppliers than BMW has, so savings can be realised there as well. In addition, Ford has a lot more room to spread the cost of engineering something than BMW; the Coyote engine, for example, was derived in part from the old Mod engine, and since it is used in multiple vehicles in Ford's lineup (including the F150), the cost can be spread fairly uniform across several model lines. The S85 engine in the M3 is used in only one, limited production model; of course it is going to increase the unit cost if you need to recover the development cost with only a small number of sales projected.

While the M3 does share quite a few components with the regular 3-Series, BMW has made it perfectly clear to the M-division that they aren't willing to totally subsidise the development of their cars in the regular lineup; the M-cars must be profitable on their own account. On the subject of components, Ford tends to go with more readily available, lower-tech solutions, rather than spend (and in some cases, waste) a huge amount of money engineering unique solutions like BMW does. The rear end, for example, isn't fundamentally different to the rear end found in any pickup truck and the suspension, while surprisingly effective, isn't all that complicated either. The M3's rear end, on the other hand, is full of electronically controlled clutches, hydraulics and a number of M3-only suspension parts, usually made of aluminum. Exchange rates come into play as well; with the US peso free-falling in value in the last few years, it makes imported products relatively more expensive.

I'm not saying whether either the M3 or the Mustang GT is better than the other; The Mustang GT is a massively good car, as is the M3 (even though I've always regarded the E9x M3 with a bit of skepticism). What I am saying is that before we go spouting off bullshit about why is A cheaper than B when A and B are equal in a couple of metrics, we need to consider a bit wider picture.
 
Everything that MrChips said, plus this: The Mustang GT is not spiritually a competitor to the M3. It is made in far too many numbers and is too much of a compromise compared to the M3, which stresses performance above all else. The Mustang GT is more like the the 335is coupe with the M Sport package.

Spiritually, a better comparison might be made with the Boss 302 and the M3. With the Boss 302 with the Laguna Seca package a good competitor for the M3 CSL. (Does BMW still make the CSL?)
 
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