2011 Formula 1 Santander British Grand Prix

I didn't think it was all that clear, I personally viewed the comment to be offensive especially since it was one line response to a very level discussion topic.

Taking it a bit too personally?

Throughout F1 history many teams have prooven beyond any shadow of a doubt that money is not a synonym with success in F1.
The most important this is to invest the most amount of money where it matters and to have good people in that specific department at work. For example Toyota, they had awesome engines. Williams for example was much more successful when they were running Toyota engines, than what they are now when running Cosworth engines. A few seasons when Williams was running Toyota engines they were actually placing better than Toyota themselves. There's no doubt in my mind one of the key factors of Williams current pace is not down to the Cosworth engine. They will run Renault next year, I cannot wait for that honestly. Money does not guarantee success.

It places alot of pressure on the teams to perform well but it does not guarantee success. I think that's the biggest problem in F1 today. Sponsors have waaay too much influence on the sport in all its aspects. There's always been politics in F1 but I don't think it was this much sponsor driven as it is today. Saying "Aero research as most of us know requires a vast amount of resources that is directly proportional to the wallets of the F1 teams" is complete redbullshit. Literally. I do realize RBR is one of the top spenders in F1 today, they are not THE biggest spenders. That title still belongs to Ferrari I suppose. Ferrari makes the most money, I am sure then why is it that RBR is the team that's so much better in every race that rules have to be bent, twisted, and morphed in every possible way so that other teams have a shot at winning?

You are wrong.
 
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It places alot of pressure on the teams to perform well but it does not guarantee success. I think that's the biggest problem in F1 today. Sponsors have waaay too much influence on the sport in all its aspects. There's always been politics in F1 but I don't think it was this much sponsor driven as it is today. Saying "Aero research as most of us know requires a vast amount of resources that is directly proportional to the wallets of the F1 teams" is complete redbullshit. Literally. I do realize RBR is one of the top spenders in F1 today, they are not THE biggest spenders. That title still belongs to Ferrari I suppose. Ferrari makes the most money, I am sure then why is it that RBR is the team that's so much better in every race that rules have to be bent, twisted, and morphed in every possible way so that other teams have a shot at winning?

You are wrong.

O rly? So the teams that spend $50 million on constructing a wind tunnel are wasting their time? What about the supercomputer to run all of the CFD modeling? those can't be cheap... or what about the salary for a man like Newey? SO how are these factors not influenced by wallet size again?
 
As I say - who locked out the front row of the grid? They said that it was going to massively hurt them blah blah, and then sure enough, front row lock out once again with McLaren and Mercedes miles off the pace. What's the issue? If you can't take the heat, step out the kitchen.

Ferrari, McLaren, are your aero teams listening?

]As for this complete nonsense that FIA were helping Ferrari out - it's complete bullsh*t. Think back to 2009 when Ferrari were having a terrible year. Did they change the rules in the middle of the year then? No. Also, remember last year when Red Bull had massively flexing wings that were giving them an advantage but nothing was done? So, just DROP IT. I think I'd look pretty happy with myself considering that Ferrari is scrutinised to the Nth degree in the Italian media every day and there's incredible pressure on the likes of Dominicalli.

09: they whined about the diffuser and it was very close to being changed midway through the season.

10: Flexywing was not in the same sort of 'questionable' aero as the diffuser or the exhaust mapping, it was empirically found to be within spec. Despite all those goings on we didn't hear any real complaints about the f-duct, despite its questionable status within the rules.



Sour grapes as ever. Ferrari won fair and square, but as will many fans it seems some are unable to accept they did better on the day. If they win surely it's a conspiracy that the FIA are helping Ferrari out and it's so truly terrible and wrong that they won this race and they sould be banned from the sport for a squillion billion years!!!!!111

A lot of the circumstantial evidence (and I admit freely thatit is circumstantial) makes it look to many people like that is the case. Think about it. Todt is ex-Ferrari, he runs the FIA, he's buddies with Luca Di Montezemelo, former Fezza team boss and political hopeful, who handpicked Domenicali for the Fezza Team Principal.

As Ferrari is doing relatively poorly, it reflects badly on Domenicali, and by extension Montezemelo, hampering his political career (not to mention making Italy look bad in general). Given the nature of Italian politics in recent years, it is not without precedent that maybe some 'suggestions' were made to the FIA via Todt about RBR running away with the championship (Not at all saying this is the case, but I would not be surprised if it was, so to speak.)

Surely you can see how this may seem a little bit suspicious, at least.
 
A lot of the circumstantial evidence (and I admit freely thatit is circumstantial) makes it look to many people like that is the case. Think about it. Todt is ex-Ferrari, he runs the FIA, he's buddies with Luca Di Montezemelo, former Fezza team boss and political hopeful, who handpicked Domenicali for the Fezza Team Principal.

As Ferrari is doing relatively poorly, it reflects badly on Domenicali, and by extension Montezemelo, hampering his political career (not to mention making Italy look bad in general). Given the nature of Italian politics in recent years, it is not without precedent that maybe some 'suggestions' were made to the FIA via Todt about RBR running away with the championship (Not at all saying this is the case, but I would not be surprised if it was, so to speak.)

https://pic.armedcats.net/s/sc/schumacherm/2011/07/13/196115.jpg

https://pic.armedcats.net/s/sc/schumacherm/2011/07/13/917389.jpg
 

Conspiracy theories are stupid things. No where in his post did he provide any factual evidence to his petty and pathetic assumptions. Anyways, I think we've heard enough from the peanut gallery, cheers mate.
 
Ferrari, McLaren, are your aero teams listening?



09: they whined about the diffuser and it was very close to being changed midway through the season.

10: Flexywing was not in the same sort of 'questionable' aero as the diffuser or the exhaust mapping, it was empirically found to be within spec. Despite all those goings on we didn't hear any real complaints about the f-duct, despite its questionable status within the rules.





A lot of the circumstantial evidence (and I admit freely thatit is circumstantial) makes it look to many people like that is the case. Think about it. Todt is ex-Ferrari, he runs the FIA, he's buddies with Luca Di Montezemelo, former Fezza team boss and political hopeful, who handpicked Domenicali for the Fezza Team Principal.

As Ferrari is doing relatively poorly, it reflects badly on Domenicali, and by extension Montezemelo, hampering his political career (not to mention making Italy look bad in general). Given the nature of Italian politics in recent years, it is not without precedent that maybe some 'suggestions' were made to the FIA via Todt about RBR running away with the championship (Not at all saying this is the case, but I would not be surprised if it was, so to speak.)

Surely you can see how this may seem a little bit suspicious, at least.


They weren't the only team in '09 to complain. Every team that didn't have the double diffuser did. So that's not just Ferrari, is it now?

Ferrari didn't complain about the flexi front wing at all in 2010. In actual fact, they along with Red Bull were criticised as to having a flexi front wing. It was McLaren that kicked that debacle off.

No, I'm not suspicious at all. Ferrari is a hugely successful team and it is inevitable that they will win races. What is the problem? There's no conspiracy. In fact, Ferrari were on the receiving end of quite a few penalties last year, like that controversial drive through that Alonso got at Silverstone last year.

Alonso won this race on pure pace alone. Fact.

Just suck it up and move on.
 
Alonso won this race on pure pace alone. Fact.

I respectfully disagree, I certainly doubt there is some sort of grand conspiracy (but I wouldn't be surprised to find out there is) but this race was gifted to Ferrari due to the exhaust rule changes. Or maybe that's incorrect, I should say it was gifted to Anyone but Red Bull and Ferrari capitalized on it by making the fewest mistakes. Yes, RBR's pit stop cockups didn't help, but I would be interested in seeing how much of a time-per-lap difference the rule change hit RBR for, and whether it would be enough to make up for those errors.
 
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I respectfully disagree, I certainly doubt there is some sort of grand conspiracy (but I wouldn't be surprised to find out there is) but this race was gifted to Ferrari by the lack of EBD.

I disagree with both JHS and you. The race was gifted to Alonso by Red Bull's pit crew. Vettel could have challenged Alonso right after that pit stop of his, but the error prevented that from happening, and Alonso was able to pull away unpressured. It's pretty easy to win a race when your nearest challenger is 10+ seconds behind you and everyone in front of you is having a blue flag waved in their face when you approach them.

Not taking anything away from Alonso here, with the pace he showed on Sunday I think he would have won the battle with Vettel if his team didn't screw up his pit stop, but it would have been a lot closer.
 
I disagree with both JHS and you. The race was gifted to Alonso by Red Bull's pit crew. Vettel could have challenged Alonso right after that pit stop of his, but the error prevented that from happening, and Alonso was able to pull away unpressured. It's pretty easy to win a race when your nearest challenger is 10+ seconds behind you and everyone in front of you is having a blue flag waved in their face when you approach them.

Not taking anything away from Alonso here, with the pace he showed on Sunday I think he would have won the battle with Vettel if his team didn't screw up his pit stop, but it would have been a lot closer.

See my edit above, but if we assume the rule change as a non-factor or disregard it then yes, I agree with you.
 
See my edit above, but if we assume the rule change as a non-factor or disregard it then yes, I agree with you.

The rule change is nonsense, yes, but I object to mid-season rule changes on principle, not because of rabid Vettel fangirl-ism. If they were to change something that benefits Red Bull and hurts Ferrari I'd probably think it's just as dumb.
 
I think it's an unwritten - or it might even be written - rule that the FIA should not change rules mid season unless they are related to safety.
 
People should stop screaming about a conspiracy that's anti-Red Bull and/or pro-Ferrari. Locked up the front row of the grid and Vettel could have fought for the race win if not for a pit stop error.

It's fine.

THIS
Stop flaming for crying out loud.
Are you reading how ridiculous your comments are getting? Someone here actually suggested Alonso won because Santander was the main sponsor of the GP... So Santander paid the mechanic changing the rear left on Vettel's car so Alonso got through in the pit hm? They knew exactly that Alonso was gonna get to 2nd place through Hamilton not many laps before that. I'm gonna go apply for a job in Santander, they surely know their shit.


There's no conspiracy for Ferrari to win for fuck's sake. Red bull has been dominating for a couple of years (even the second part of 2009 was almost all RBR, Brawn GP won the title based on their dominance of the first half), and shit like this happens when a team is very successful. People claiming they've been watching F1 for decades forget about the kind of weird decisions against MS in 94/95, or the many times the rules changed in the early 2000s with Ferrari keeping it's dominance until in 2005 finally Renault won...

I am in agreement that changing the rules to have them changed right back the next race is a bit silly, but to call this a move to give Ferrari an advantage it seems a little far fetched and hot headed.

I respectfully disagree, I certainly doubt there is some sort of grand conspiracy (but I wouldn't be surprised to find out there is) but this race was gifted to Ferrari due to the exhaust rule changes. Or maybe that's incorrect, I should say it was gifted to Anyone but Red Bull and Ferrari capitalized on it by making the fewest mistakes. Yes, RBR's pit stop cockups didn't help, but I would be interested in seeing how much of a time-per-lap difference the rule change hit RBR for, and whether it would be enough to make up for those errors.

Alonso won because of a pit mistake by RBR. Then he pulled away in clean air as Vettel, as anyone being under attack, got slower under Hamilton's threat. That allowed Alonso to form a bit of a gap, but at the end of the day, his win was not a Schumacheresque minute and a half ahead of second place... if Hamilton was not there to entertain Vettel, he would have catched Alonso and DRS'd his way past him. The RBR is still the strongest car out there as was thoroughly demonstrated by their qualifying.

Also it wasn't Mercedes but Renault engines that were supposedly allowed to run 50% off-throttle blowing because of cooling issues.
 
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Conspiracy theories are stupid things. No where in his post did he provide any factual evidence to his petty and pathetic assumptions. Anyways, I think we've heard enough from the peanut gallery, cheers mate.

However as far as the FIA are concerned, probably true.

Just about every decision made in the Mosely era had been worked out between Ecclestone, Mosely and the relevant teams in advance of any actual hearing. Ron Dennis being the notable exception who wanted to prove his innocence, got him a ?100million fine from the FIA and had to prove his innocence in an actual French court instead.

Historically the FIA has been a corrupt organisation, who knows if that's changed with Todt.
 
Ferrari DID win this on pace, regardless of the Red Bull pit error.

Both Christian Horner and Sebastian Vettel have conceded that Alonso would have won the race even if they had not had the pit issue, such was his pace compared to Red Bull's at the time. These are guys who know what they are on about and have the full facts, rather than some guy on the internet spewing a load of speculative bollocks.

If you still don't believe them, go back and compared lap times between Alonso and Vettel before that pit stop. The truth is Alonso was clearly the fastest man on track.

Ferrari won. The end. No conspiracy, not gifted, now move on.
 
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