Random Thoughts... [Automotive Edition]

[Lastsoul]

if you drive like a granny, they'll last ages! if you a more spirited drivingstyle, at 100 000km, they're worn out. i've already wearn out a few of them...

Well... My 406 has 205k miles (330k kms) at the moment, last 20k km of those have been driven on the German autobahn without much care to "old an worn drivetrain". Fresh oils etc of course. Not a single thing has gone wrong, it still surpasses the claimed top speed and one lap around the ring didn't even cause any fade in the brakes (OEM hardware, fresh high quality fluids). I've also driven couple of times on a trackday in Finland without much mechanical sympathy. And it's only French, not W124 or something other that's praised for it's reliability.

Partially true. The original R-s in the 90's sold quite well, because they were a limited production. For the 3 years of production, only 14,000 were made and probably less than 1/3 were brought to the US.

With the S60R/V70R, they brought 5,000 of them in 2004 alone (I don't have the numbers for the other years). Of course, they couldn't sell 5,000 R's in a single year. They sold well for what the car was, but not as good as Volvo (or maybe Ford...) expected. Bad market research.

That may be a reason why it is not that difficult find an R these days. I can have one if I wanted one, but right now I'm looking into more rare/obscure combinations - like I said the S40 T5M AWD or the S70 T5M. In the end, I might just get an R and be done with it.

May I suggest just trying some other cars? To be honest I don't have a personal driving experience with the S40 T5, but my father was one call away from buying one. All the options and the colour was already chosen, 300km test drive made etc. He was supposed to order the car on Monday, but local BMW dealer had a campaign on Saturday, and he decided to try one out. That was just six months beofre E46 got replaced by E90.

This being Finland, they only had 316i with Sport suspension, seats etc. The car was slow. Comparing that engine to the turbo straight five in the Volvo was a joke. But then came rubbish tarmac and corners. The E46 didn't give a damn about some imperfections, it just glued itself to the road and kept the passangers in a pretty good comfort. It was like comparing a Corolla and a BMW, really. On monday my father cancelled the T5. He didn't buy a BMW either, mainly because of the ridicilous price of a well specced 320i, but that's another story.

And my point is: S60 T5 might be a much better Volvo. More comfortable and refired, but a bit worse to drive. But the point of a Volvo is not about the handling, they never shine on that department, so why not to buy a Volvo where Volvo excels? Maybe a V70. Same great seats as the S60, good lights, ergonomy, comfort and a huge space for stuff. Not a good driver's car, but certainly excellent cruisers.

 

[Der Stig]

He drove an E46 330i and was underwhelmed- I think he should get a 240 wagon (preferably in beige with white RE37s) and swap in a turbo 5.

 

[Spectre]

He drove an E46 330i and was underwhelmed- I think he should get a 240 wagon (preferably in beige with white RE37s) and swap in a turbo 5 an LS1.

FTFY.

Partially true. The original R-s in the 90's sold quite well, because they were a limited production. For the 3 years of production, only 14,000 were made and probably less than 1/3 were brought to the US.

That's not exactly 'selling well,' that's just 'we made a few and managed to sell them all.'

With the S60R/V70R, they brought 5,000 of them in 2004 alone (I don't have the numbers for the other years). Of course, they couldn't sell 5,000 R's in a single year. They sold well for what the car was, but not as good as Volvo (or maybe Ford...) expected. Bad market research.

http://paultan.org/2007/04/09/volvo-to-drop-r-performance-badge/

While Volvo?s R badged vehicles were delicious beasts to begin with, sales figures did not meet expectations. Annual sales targets were set at 3,800 for the S60 R and V70 R, but only managed to hit 1,098 S60 R and 528 V70 R in 2006.

https://www.media.volvocars.com/global/enhanced/en-gb/Media/Preview.aspx?mediaid=5021

Almost one-third of all Volvo cars made in 2004 were sold in North America. Total sales in the NAFTA countries amounted to 154,000 (148,528) of which the US accounted for a new record of 139,155 (134,620) Volvos, an increase of three and a half percent.

From the same source, they made 73,121 S60s that year.

Per media.ford.com/pdf/Dec2004sales.pdf, Volvo sold 27,835 S60s in the US that year.

Various sources around the internet state that they sold about 3000-3200 S60Rs that year and had leftovers. So about 11-12% of US S60s were Rs, and even if you accept the 5000 number for S60R and V70Rs combined, that's still less than 5% of US Volvo sales overall (and that was the best year for Volvo R model sales!) By comparison, BMW routinely sells over 10-15% M-models in the US, and that's not including the larger non-M performance models. Even Jaguar's X308s and X100s were about 15% R-models. About a quarter of all X350s are R-models, etc., etc.

Denial is apparently not just a river in Egypt; new Volvo buyers just aren't all that interested in performance versions. That is why the dealers did not stock them.

 

[argatoga]

I've given up on offering advice. HV will buy a Volvo. It will break down and cost him a fortune. But as long as he never drives a sports car he won't mind the 'meh' handling.

 

[Adunaphel]

I've given up on offering advice. HV will buy a Volvo. It will break down and cost him a fortune. But as long as he never drives a sports car he won't mind the 'meh' handling will think he drives one.

Fixed.

 

[Lastsoul]

I'm still not sure about the reliability. Here Volvos are not known as as reliable as Toyotas, but they're not known as money pits either. So I wouldn't worry about that. But I'd just buy a much better car for the same money

Edit: I forgot to mention, that I've heard the spare parts bought from official dealer are extremely overpriced, so that might be one reason for Volvos being expensive to run. But if you buy them wisely they shouldn't be a problem.

 

[argatoga]

TrueDelta shows them to be pretty bad in the U.S.

 

[Lastsoul]

What does that actually measure?

 

[Spectre]

TrueDelta shows them to be pretty bad in the U.S.

Identifix lists these problems with the 2004 S60R in their database:

Periodic problems on this vehicle are the failure of the Engine Intake Valves, Fuel Pressure Sensor, Leak Detection Pump and Crankcase Ventilation Hose under the intake manifold. The cost to replace the Engine Intake Valves is estimated at $460.00 for parts and $1170.00 for labor. The cost to replace the Fuel Pressure Sensor is estimated at $60.00 for parts and $39.00 for labor. The cost to replace the Leak Detection Pump is estimated at $200.00 for parts and $130.00 for labor. The cost to replace the Crankcase Ventilation Hose is estimated at $50.00 for parts and $195.00 for labor. All prices are estimates based on $65 per flat rate hour and do not include diagnostic time or any applicable sales tax.

In this day and age, how do you make an engine that eats its intake valves???

 

[Lastsoul]

Okay, so actually not bad apart from intake valves? Does the system also tell if all these problems occur on every single example with great probability, or are they just the most typical problems that commonly occur to S60Rs.

 

[Spectre]

Okay, so actually not bad apart from intake valves? Does the system also tell if all these problems occur on every single example with great probability, or are they just the most typical problems that commonly occur to S60Rs.

That was just a quick glance at Identifix. I think, but am not sure, that they're based on extended warranty claims.

However, a quick glance at the various Volvo forums (like Swedespeed) shows that the car also likes to blow up the Haldex (angle gear failure, $3K), eats suspension parts like Pez (struts and shocks are about $1000 a corner), smokes the clutch pretty fast (another $3K).

One comment:

Also we had an 04 and traded it in for an 07. In the two and a half years we had it it was in for service over 35 times. The service manager added up all the repairs when we traded it in and it was around $25k which is what we bought the car for.

The transmission also is problematic and tends to go. $5000+ to replace it, rebuild isn't much cheaper. Apparently maintenance parts (pads, filters, etc.) for the R are very specific to the R and are quite expensive at the dealership. Some of these prices make my XJR look like a bargain basement special, sheesh.

 

[katwalk]

Awesome! How was the standard radio in terms of ease of use? It just seems to be just enough of a pain to use by looks, that I'd deal with the Devil and get the My Ford Touch unit.

I love the interior as well...go team Beige! Curious minds want to know though, what was super wrong with the Astra?

Wait. Why do you like a focus hatchback. I like focus hatchbacks, that is clearly not boring enough for you.

 

[NooDle]

if i've driven one for 100 000km, the shock abosorbers are nothing short of shot, the gearbox feels all squishy, and i once broke a mounting point on the engine by driving off a curb to fast

hmmmm.... I changed my shocks at around 120k kms, but it's normal, they're not supposed to last much more than that...for most cars anyway... it's like complaining about how you go through tyres and brake pads, it's supposed to last for a certain amount of time....

breaking the engine mount is quite a feat though

I've also heard that newer and the newest models of Astra are far worse mechanically than my old beast, which seems strange since it's got much more tech and is made in cleverer/cheaper ways. Although that last thing may be very bad

 

[prizrak]

That was just a quick glance at Identifix. I think, but am not sure, that they're based on extended warranty claims.

However, a quick glance at the various Volvo forums (like Swedespeed) shows that the car also likes to blow up the Haldex (angle gear failure, $3K), eats suspension parts like Pez (struts and shocks are about $1000 a corner), smokes the clutch pretty fast (another $3K).

One comment:



The transmission also is problematic and tends to go. $5000+ to replace it, rebuild isn't much cheaper. Apparently maintenance parts (pads, filters, etc.) for the R are very specific to the R and are quite expensive at the dealership. Some of these prices make my XJR look like a bargain basement special, sheesh.

From anecdotal, my friend's wife has a Volvo (S60 IIRC either 03 or 04) and that thing was in the shop more times than I care to count, some of the things were bizarre like cat needing to be replaced, I know plenty of people with older cars that drive more (and much more aggressively) and don't need cats replaced. Another one was indicator stalk breaking off, which I can't even understand as pretty much 90% of people in my auto club drive 240sx's with plenty of them being from 89 and NONE EVER had that issue...

 

[argatoga]

What does that actually measure?

Car owners who register submit any problems encountered during their ownership of their vehicle.

From anecdotal, my friend's wife has a Volvo (S60 IIRC either 03 or 04) and that thing was in the shop more times than I care to count, some of the things were bizarre like cat needing to be replaced, I know plenty of people with older cars that drive more (and much more aggressively) and don't need cats replaced. Another one was indicator stalk breaking off, which I can't even understand as pretty much 90% of people in my auto club drive 240sx's with plenty of them being from 89 and NONE EVER had that issue...

Ha. I had the indicator stock break off from my Volvo 850T. I guess it is part of the Volvo experience.

 

[Spectre]

From anecdotal, my friend's wife has a Volvo (S60 IIRC either 03 or 04) and that thing was in the shop more times than I care to count, some of the things were bizarre like cat needing to be replaced, I know plenty of people with older cars that drive more (and much more aggressively) and don't need cats replaced. Another one was indicator stalk breaking off, which I can't even understand as pretty much 90% of people in my auto club drive 240sx's with plenty of them being from 89 and NONE EVER had that issue...

Maybe Volvo should have dipped deeper in the Ford USDM parts bin - never heard of an aero-era Crown Vic stalk breaking off either. I don't remember the S60's stalk feeling any better than the Crown Vic's, either, but I could be wrong - if I'm correct, it wouldn't be the step down like it was when they started using CV-ish switch gear in the Jags which was really obvious and a big mistake.

 

[prizrak]

Can someone explain to me Volvo love to me? They are no more comfortable than other Eurotrash (as I affectionately call my car), they are not particularly sporty and they cost about as much as entry level Audi/BMW and while historically they have been the "safe" cars it is no longer the case.

 

[argatoga]

Can someone explain to me Volvo love to me? They are no more comfortable than other Eurotrash (as I affectionately call my car), they are not particularly sporty and they cost about as much as entry level Audi/BMW and while historically they have been the "safe" cars it is no longer the case.

In this case because they are F-22 Raptors when compared to a VW Polo. He went from the latter to a Volvo and has mentally committed himself to only consider Volvo. I'm guessing he also joined a couple Volvo forums as well thus furthering his commitment. Now he has a stake in a community that he will abandon if he purchases another brand of car.

Off topic: I try to keep this mentality of evaluating reasons for decisions in my mind at all times. Mobs and blind faith are terrible things to fall victim to.

 

[Mr.Woolery]

This weekend found a lot of friends attending my Summer Tech Day. Many of them pitched in to help with the Charger project, helping to remove the entire front end off the car. The engine, transmission, K frame, and front suspension were all removed in one day.

The method we used for this removal may seem a bit unorthodox, but is the correct way to remove the involved systems. Unlike the classic method of using an engine hoist to lift the engine out of the engine bay, we basically did the reverse procedure used by the factory to install the suspension and drivetrain. At the factory, the engine, transmission, and suspension were installed by lowering the body onto the K-frame/engine/transmission/front suspension as a unit. Aside from ancillary connections (hoses, electronics, etc). the entire drivetrain is held in by just 5 major bolts! After disconnecting all the ancillary bits, we were able to simply lower the engine/transmission/suspension assembly to the floor using a couple of hydraulic jacks. Then we lifted the front end of the car to make room for the whole assembly to slide out from under the car.

Once we had the assembly out from under the car, we installed special caster wheels that mount to the frame rail using the same bolt holes previously used to support the k-frame assembly. Then the car was lowered onto the casters, allowing the body to be pushed around the garage at will without needing jack stands.

Next step: Lots more cleanup, then I?ll be sending the Charger body to Blackbird Fabworx to have a custom suspension upgrade installed, as well as some serious chassis stiffening, seam welding, and a custom cage install!

 

[EyeMWing]

In this day and age, how do you make an engine that eats its intake valves???

I don't know, ask the people who designed Ford's 2L CVH because they managed the same trick.