McRae
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Danish PET is in fact an intelligence agency. "Efterretningstjeneste" meaning "intelligence service". We don't have a "sikkerhedstjeneste" like swedish S?PO or norwegian PST.
Breaking news: Blast hit Norwegian government building in Oslo
- Thread starter nomix
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Danish PET is in fact an intelligence agency. "Efterretningstjeneste" meaning "intelligence service". We don't have a "sikkerhedstjeneste" like swedish S?PO or norwegian PST.
Before anything, as I haven't said this before: My deepest condolences to all Norwegians.
.....
My friend lives on a farm, and before all this he once said that he could make a huge, hundreds of kg's, ANFO bomb tomorrow if he wanted. They have and they need both ingredients, a few thousand liter tank for tax free diesel oil (that has the marking chemical) and 1000 kg bags of fertilizer.
Iirc the IRA used these type of bombs and the Brits couldn't do a thing, after all you can't ban fertilizer and diesel.
(and we were watching Mythbusters, not planning any bombs)
.....
My friend lives on a farm, and before all this he once said that he could make a huge, hundreds of kg's, ANFO bomb tomorrow if he wanted. They have and they need both ingredients, a few thousand liter tank for tax free diesel oil (that has the marking chemical) and 1000 kg bags of fertilizer.
Iirc the IRA used these type of bombs and the Brits couldn't do a thing, after all you can't ban fertilizer and diesel.
(and we were watching Mythbusters, not planning any bombs)
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nomix
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It looks like mr. Glenn Beck has just put his foot up his mouth.
Disclaimer: I'm translating to English a piece of text that was translated to Norwegian from English, on my phone. Therefore, what I quote may not be strictly accurate.
"There was shooting at a political camp, that resembels the Hitler Youth. I mean, who arrange a summer camp for kids that's just about politics? It's disturbing."
Professor of Poltical science, Frank Aarebraat is usually a balanced guy. But he's gone ballistic.
"He's a fascist. Only a fascist would say something like that. The man is a pig. Beck is a vulgr propagandist who tries to outdo Joseph Goebbles."
I don't think he's perfectly right in his response, but today, I'd like to say this to mr. Beck:
You loudmouth claptrap bullshit excuse for a sane man: Shut up, hop on a plane with your scuba gear, and help out looking for dead bodiesxin the water outside Ut?ya.
Please go away.
Disclaimer: I'm translating to English a piece of text that was translated to Norwegian from English, on my phone. Therefore, what I quote may not be strictly accurate.
"There was shooting at a political camp, that resembels the Hitler Youth. I mean, who arrange a summer camp for kids that's just about politics? It's disturbing."
Professor of Poltical science, Frank Aarebraat is usually a balanced guy. But he's gone ballistic.
"He's a fascist. Only a fascist would say something like that. The man is a pig. Beck is a vulgr propagandist who tries to outdo Joseph Goebbles."
I don't think he's perfectly right in his response, but today, I'd like to say this to mr. Beck:
You loudmouth claptrap bullshit excuse for a sane man: Shut up, hop on a plane with your scuba gear, and help out looking for dead bodiesxin the water outside Ut?ya.
Please go away.
nomix
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Yes, the word efterretningstjeneste is almost exactly like the Norwegian words etteretningstjeneste. But that's the name, back in the day, our security services were called "POT", or "Politiets overv?kningstjenste", "the Police Surveilance Service". It was a still a security service. When talking about intelligene services, it's common to make a distinction between internal security services that work with intelligence, surveilance, security and operative measures against threats to the nation, and intelligence services that gather intelligence outside it's mother nation to analyze the outside world.
jack_christie
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marcos_eirik
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Somehow I'm not surprised that Glenn Beck said something like that. After seeing clips from his talk show, seeing him say something like that was almost expected. He is after all Faux News' islamophobic-fear-mongerer-in-chief. All he does on his shows is to spread right-wing propaganda. He is if possible worse than both Rush Limbaugh, and Bill O'Reilly put together. With what he said about AUF he proves that he is an even bigger idiot than Keith Olberman made him look like in his "Worst person in the world" sections...
And to think, there are actually people who takes what he says as facts...
According to Frank Aarebrot this one is actually so bad that the Norwegian ambassador in the US should consider issuing a press statement, stating what AUF actually is... And to be honest, I agree with him...
http://www.sdtars.com/events/camp.php
I'm not all too happy about politics for kids, but comparing those summer camps to Hitler Youth is disgusting.
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GRtak
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Everything is about Hitler to Beck. That is the only thing in history that he learned.
Heathrow
Yes, as in the airport.
Remand Hearing at Court toady:
The case was deemed serious enough to be held at the High Court, this was expected and this is as it would be here in England.
No live TV for the first part of the Court process.
The media companies do not like this, but I think it is the correct approach to take. The Judge was told by police that Breivik may use hearing to pass on a coded message. Also, publicity is what he wants and was possibly part of the motivation for mass murder.
The Court outline his motivation and dismiss it as irrelevant.
Good, LOL.
Remanded in custody for eight weeks, with the first four weeks "incommunicado", except for his lawyer and no access to media for the duration.
Remanded in custody is standard for murder and terrorism, but I particularly liked keeping him out of touch completely for four weeks and banning all media communications for the Remand process.
He must be raging to NOT be allowed to spout his rubbish to the media, as planned. Good, fuck him!
Police Press Conference:
The previous death toll for the shootings on Utoeya island was 86. So in total, the known death toll is now 76, not 93. Explaining the confusion, police cited difficulties in gathering information at Utoeya. (BBC source.)
The confusion of the emergent situation is understandable, I believe. When "A police officer" has been stalking the island and shooting at groups of people, it is very understandable that when real Police officers come to your rescue, you may continue to "play dead."
So, when the officers do the initial victims assessment, they may count some people as dead, when they are only injured or pretending.
Police faced questions over the efficiency and speed of the response to Friday's attacks. "Of course there will be an investigation about what we can learn and whether we could have done it better," they tell reporters. (BBC source.)
OK, this is a little difficult to explain.
After the first emergency call about the shootings, the Police received several others on the same incient, with varying levels of detail, I suspect. A senior officer then took the correct command decision NOT just to "send the nearest unit" to invesatigate, but to assess the risk fully and send a fully armed, capable and briefed "SWAT" type unit. At that time the Police were unaware of how many gunmen were on the island, how heavily armed they were and what their intentions.
This took from 17:38 until 18:25 to organise and implement, the shooter was arrested at 18:28. Everyone would always wish that they could have there been sooner, but their speed of actions looks good, all things considered.
The "why did the Police not go by heleicopter" question. The Police only have small helicopters with no defensive or offensive capacity. Sending one of these into an unknown hostile situation would be very risky. The Met Police in London only have small helicopters as well, they have no defensive armour, no offensive fire capablity and no airlift or rappelle facility and training.
* * *
Many Norwegians live in London and are mourning. People can sign a book of condolences in the Norwegian Embassy in London today from 13:00-15:30. Also the Norwegian Church will be open daily this week from 10:00 to 19:00 for those who need somewhere to go. (BBC source)
The case was deemed serious enough to be held at the High Court, this was expected and this is as it would be here in England.
No live TV for the first part of the Court process.
The media companies do not like this, but I think it is the correct approach to take. The Judge was told by police that Breivik may use hearing to pass on a coded message. Also, publicity is what he wants and was possibly part of the motivation for mass murder.
The Court outline his motivation and dismiss it as irrelevant.
Good, LOL.
Remanded in custody for eight weeks, with the first four weeks "incommunicado", except for his lawyer and no access to media for the duration.
Remanded in custody is standard for murder and terrorism, but I particularly liked keeping him out of touch completely for four weeks and banning all media communications for the Remand process.
He must be raging to NOT be allowed to spout his rubbish to the media, as planned. Good, fuck him!
Police Press Conference:
The previous death toll for the shootings on Utoeya island was 86. So in total, the known death toll is now 76, not 93. Explaining the confusion, police cited difficulties in gathering information at Utoeya. (BBC source.)
The confusion of the emergent situation is understandable, I believe. When "A police officer" has been stalking the island and shooting at groups of people, it is very understandable that when real Police officers come to your rescue, you may continue to "play dead."
So, when the officers do the initial victims assessment, they may count some people as dead, when they are only injured or pretending.
Police faced questions over the efficiency and speed of the response to Friday's attacks. "Of course there will be an investigation about what we can learn and whether we could have done it better," they tell reporters. (BBC source.)
OK, this is a little difficult to explain.
After the first emergency call about the shootings, the Police received several others on the same incient, with varying levels of detail, I suspect. A senior officer then took the correct command decision NOT just to "send the nearest unit" to invesatigate, but to assess the risk fully and send a fully armed, capable and briefed "SWAT" type unit. At that time the Police were unaware of how many gunmen were on the island, how heavily armed they were and what their intentions.
This took from 17:38 until 18:25 to organise and implement, the shooter was arrested at 18:28. Everyone would always wish that they could have there been sooner, but their speed of actions looks good, all things considered.
The "why did the Police not go by heleicopter" question. The Police only have small helicopters with no defensive or offensive capacity. Sending one of these into an unknown hostile situation would be very risky. The Met Police in London only have small helicopters as well, they have no defensive armour, no offensive fire capablity and no airlift or rappelle facility and training.
* * *
Many Norwegians live in London and are mourning. People can sign a book of condolences in the Norwegian Embassy in London today from 13:00-15:30. Also the Norwegian Church will be open daily this week from 10:00 to 19:00 for those who need somewhere to go. (BBC source)
nomix
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Just for clarification, court proceedings are not filmed in Norway. There are openings for it in Sweden, I believe, but in Norway, there's severe restrictions to how you can cover court proceedings. For instance, you need the suspects permission to photograph him while being transported to and from court (the only time you need such permission for any photography in Norway), people have been sent to jail for breaking this rule. Some have narrowly escaped it, when they mistakenly sent photos of suspects onto the wire.
Steve Levin
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Coming from someone that early in this thread had the wild and baseless conjecture that this was an attack by the Mossad, all I can say is: Pot, Kettle, Black.
nomix
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Firecat is indeed right. If you read the post in its original context, you will see I was referring to some claim it might be the Russians (or the Chinese, I forget).
What I said was that such an attack didn't fit either Russian nor Chinese MO, apart from the obviousxstrategic and political issues related to attacking the government of a NATO country.
In that context, I pointed out that - as the MO fits to a far greater degree - it was as logical to suspect Israel (who, let's not forget, were responsible for 25 % of all terrorist attacks in Norway prior to 22/7), but that it was still a strategic no-no for Israel.
There's a golden rule in debate. If you intend to critisize a post.. make sure you understand what is written. Or else you might look a bit of a minky.
What I said was that such an attack didn't fit either Russian nor Chinese MO, apart from the obviousxstrategic and political issues related to attacking the government of a NATO country.
In that context, I pointed out that - as the MO fits to a far greater degree - it was as logical to suspect Israel (who, let's not forget, were responsible for 25 % of all terrorist attacks in Norway prior to 22/7), but that it was still a strategic no-no for Israel.
There's a golden rule in debate. If you intend to critisize a post.. make sure you understand what is written. Or else you might look a bit of a minky.
Firecat
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Not very shocking. O'Reilly rejects characterization of ABB as a "Christian extremist"....writes him off as a loon, loser, and mass murderer (no mention of terrorist or terrorism) and motivated by hatred (no mention of right-wing extremism either).
Basically there is no Christian or right-wing extremism....Muslims are the only threat.
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tigger
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There's no misunderstanding there. Glenn Beck is just that big of an asshole.
I hope he's suffering one way or another.
As they quoted the police source, there will inevitably be questions like this. Maybe they could've done it faster but I'm not going to fault their response unless there's some evidence of gross negligence.
That's the exact same sort of whitewash that Fox does on anything like this. As far as they're concerned, only brown people or liberals are capable of terrorism. They try to pull the same trick whenever they talk about militia movements in the US, Timothy McVeigh, Ruby Ridge, Waco, etc.
Like others said, the 1995 Oklahoma City, OK, US bombing is a prime example of the kind of destruction that can be wrought with a 'fertilizer' bomb.
The OKC bomber, McVeigh, used about 7,000lbs of explosives total (the bulk of which was ammonium nitrate fertilizer). McVeigh killed nearly 170 people and injured several hundred. If you want to find some kind of upside in the Norwegian attack I suppose it could be that this Breivik fuck was only able to get his hands on about 1,100lbs of the stuff.
M3lover
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My best whiches to our northen neighbors.
On the production of the bomb:
He also founded a mock up mining company along side the farming company to minimize the chance of raising suspicion.
He descripes much of the purchase methods he used in his log, and it seems he has been very careful to not raise any flags, spreading his purchases, arranging alternative labeling for many of the needed chemicals like "high quality yellow painters powder" etc.
As hard as you try, I don't think you can prevent a man as determined as this (he seems to have been working methodically towards this for about a decade) to do terror through more control of fertilizers, guns etc.
A danish tabloid has now questioned if there could be a connection between him being a gamer (played WoW, MW2, Dragon age etc.) and the shootings. I think that linking the two has as much behind it as saying that there could be a connection between his preferrence for French vintage wines and the shooting.
On the production of the bomb:
He also founded a mock up mining company along side the farming company to minimize the chance of raising suspicion.
He descripes much of the purchase methods he used in his log, and it seems he has been very careful to not raise any flags, spreading his purchases, arranging alternative labeling for many of the needed chemicals like "high quality yellow painters powder" etc.
As hard as you try, I don't think you can prevent a man as determined as this (he seems to have been working methodically towards this for about a decade) to do terror through more control of fertilizers, guns etc.
A danish tabloid has now questioned if there could be a connection between him being a gamer (played WoW, MW2, Dragon age etc.) and the shootings. I think that linking the two has as much behind it as saying that there could be a connection between his preferrence for French vintage wines and the shooting.
Dr_Grip
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He seems to be "inspired" by anything that's right-wing, anti-government, anti-islam. His 1500-page pamphlet is a copy-and-paste bonanza from right wing bloggers, Clarkson (as I just learned) and even incorporates large amounts of the Unabomber Manifesto.
If it would not be for almost a hundred people having died, it would be almost comical to see how the conservatives all over the EU not only completely ignore that it was one of them who commited this crime, but even have the balls to move on to use his actions to push their own law-and-order agenda before the victims are even buried. German newspaper DIE ZEIT had a nice editorial about it which I will translate for all of you.
Dr_Grip
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Why in god's name should one stay on topic?
On a day like this one would like to be Hans-Peter Uhl. Just for five minutes, to understand what this man - he is the CDU/CSU faction's spokesperson for interior politics - thought when he said:
"We need telecommunications data retention. The police can only prevent such events from happening and protect the public if they can trace the communication during the planning stages of terrorist attacks." Such events: With this he is referring to the attacks of Oslo and Utoya.
How does the mind of a person who raises such demands two days after this massacre work? Does he feel uncomfortable knowing, that the dead are not even buried while he already is back to party politics? Is he a little unsure if that what the right thing to say facing the crime and the mourning? Does he, maybe just for a short time, question weather data rentention could have prevented this crime, eventhough the assassin Anders Behring Breivik might have published radical thoughts to the internet, he published nothing that pointed to a massacre being right ahead.
Well, one would like to know if Hans-Peter Uhl from the ruling party CSU knows about all this and if he still has the chutzpa to go in front of the press and repeat his always the same sentence about data retention. Or if he's just terribly badly informed.
Bernhard Witthaut, chairman of the policemen's union (GdP) is another person of fast reflexes. He in all serionsness demanded to create a database of "suspective persons" - on friday night, when the first news of the killings at the youth camp came in. How shameless must an organization be to do that kind of campaigning at such a time?
Or take Joachim Herrmann, Minister for the Interior in Bavaria. The CSU politician wants to have "this internet postings traced even more extensive". Basically, Herrmann even is a bit worse than his fellow party man Uhl, and not only because as Minister for the Interior he has more power. But mostly because he openly admits that the two things have nothing to do with each other: With lone gunmen one "won't gain a thing by monitoring communications" he states in the same interview, while still demanding a closer monitoring of the internet. What exactely does he want to look for, anyways? For islamophobe hatred like the attacker published? Does he know that he'll end up on Henryk M. Broder*'s blog in a heartbeat? Or at Pro Deutschland, the right-wing populist party?
Not even the Norwegians are debating stronger laws right now. Over here, it did not took three days to start this debate. Welcome to the country of fast reflexes. How cheap this reflexes are and how much the media in our country is affected as well was already obvious friday night. Nothing was certain at this point, especially not motive. Nevertheless, many german media outlets did not get out of their way to make space for "experts" diagnosing an islamist background. Even ZEIT ONLINE was not free of this reflexes. On the ZDF**, to make matters worse, "terror expert" Elmar Theve?en was allowed to bring forward the islamist thesis when news of the blonde, blue-eyed attacker already broke.
But why should one leave the know path that provided to be so comfortable and relevant all the way since 9/11? Why think about something else than bombing muslims? Why talk about the inhuman agenda of right-wing populists (in Germany as well!) if you simply can demand data retention once again? This gruesome weekend in Norway has proven once again how reflexive and substanceless Germany's political debates are.
*Henryk M. Broder is a jewish-german journalist and blogger who prides himself of his strong anti-islam stance. He is the founder of the "axis of good", a network of anti-islamist and pro-israel intellectuals.
**The ZDF is the second public broadcasting channel in Germany. Think BBC 2, but operated independently of BBC 1.
Translated from http://mobil.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2011-07/norwegen-attentat-politik-deutschland
This translation obviously is a hackjob by me, so some of the rhetorics might have been lost. I think this op/ed piece does fit the debate not only in Germany, but in most central european countries scaringly well. It was published before "COMPUTER GAMES ARE EVIL!!!11!!", another conservative pet project, had been added to the list of things this tragedy is being used for.
On a day like this one would like to be Hans-Peter Uhl. Just for five minutes, to understand what this man - he is the CDU/CSU faction's spokesperson for interior politics - thought when he said:
"We need telecommunications data retention. The police can only prevent such events from happening and protect the public if they can trace the communication during the planning stages of terrorist attacks." Such events: With this he is referring to the attacks of Oslo and Utoya.
How does the mind of a person who raises such demands two days after this massacre work? Does he feel uncomfortable knowing, that the dead are not even buried while he already is back to party politics? Is he a little unsure if that what the right thing to say facing the crime and the mourning? Does he, maybe just for a short time, question weather data rentention could have prevented this crime, eventhough the assassin Anders Behring Breivik might have published radical thoughts to the internet, he published nothing that pointed to a massacre being right ahead.
Well, one would like to know if Hans-Peter Uhl from the ruling party CSU knows about all this and if he still has the chutzpa to go in front of the press and repeat his always the same sentence about data retention. Or if he's just terribly badly informed.
Bernhard Witthaut, chairman of the policemen's union (GdP) is another person of fast reflexes. He in all serionsness demanded to create a database of "suspective persons" - on friday night, when the first news of the killings at the youth camp came in. How shameless must an organization be to do that kind of campaigning at such a time?
Or take Joachim Herrmann, Minister for the Interior in Bavaria. The CSU politician wants to have "this internet postings traced even more extensive". Basically, Herrmann even is a bit worse than his fellow party man Uhl, and not only because as Minister for the Interior he has more power. But mostly because he openly admits that the two things have nothing to do with each other: With lone gunmen one "won't gain a thing by monitoring communications" he states in the same interview, while still demanding a closer monitoring of the internet. What exactely does he want to look for, anyways? For islamophobe hatred like the attacker published? Does he know that he'll end up on Henryk M. Broder*'s blog in a heartbeat? Or at Pro Deutschland, the right-wing populist party?
Not even the Norwegians are debating stronger laws right now. Over here, it did not took three days to start this debate. Welcome to the country of fast reflexes. How cheap this reflexes are and how much the media in our country is affected as well was already obvious friday night. Nothing was certain at this point, especially not motive. Nevertheless, many german media outlets did not get out of their way to make space for "experts" diagnosing an islamist background. Even ZEIT ONLINE was not free of this reflexes. On the ZDF**, to make matters worse, "terror expert" Elmar Theve?en was allowed to bring forward the islamist thesis when news of the blonde, blue-eyed attacker already broke.
But why should one leave the know path that provided to be so comfortable and relevant all the way since 9/11? Why think about something else than bombing muslims? Why talk about the inhuman agenda of right-wing populists (in Germany as well!) if you simply can demand data retention once again? This gruesome weekend in Norway has proven once again how reflexive and substanceless Germany's political debates are.
*Henryk M. Broder is a jewish-german journalist and blogger who prides himself of his strong anti-islam stance. He is the founder of the "axis of good", a network of anti-islamist and pro-israel intellectuals.
**The ZDF is the second public broadcasting channel in Germany. Think BBC 2, but operated independently of BBC 1.
Translated from http://mobil.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2011-07/norwegen-attentat-politik-deutschland
This translation obviously is a hackjob by me, so some of the rhetorics might have been lost. I think this op/ed piece does fit the debate not only in Germany, but in most central european countries scaringly well. It was published before "COMPUTER GAMES ARE EVIL!!!11!!", another conservative pet project, had been added to the list of things this tragedy is being used for.
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