What's your REALISTIC dream car? (under ~$40k US)

[janstett]

^Also, the Toureg and the Cayenne are excellent off-road vehicles. I dont know if sombody has said that yet, but they are great on road and off road.

Based on what? What Porsche tells you?

Look, Porsche went further than they had to to satisfy the poseurs who are 99.99% of the Cayenne buyers. (I do respect the guys who use the pepper to tow their race car in style). It's a great, fast SUV (which shouldn't exist) but it's useless as an offroader. Nice that they bothered with the three locking differentials, air suspension, hill climb/descent, etc.

On road, it's certainly amazing. I saw one autocross at a Porsche Club event when they were first introduced. They don't LET SUV's autocross because of their top-heavy nature and tendency to roll over. So the Cayenne was the first one I ever saw. As I stood there watching it run the course, I was AMAZED, sort of in the same way I'd be amazed to see an elephant perform ballet. I was impressed with the stability control keeping the porker level, and the speed and power required to move that much metal.

Now, having gotten that out of the way, they are useless offroad. First, nobody in their right mind is going to risk scratching their $90k Cayenne offroad. Second, the tires on the Cayenne are completely ill-suited to anything other than flat pavement. Third, the suspension cannot articulate at all, it might as well be welded in place. When offroading, articulation matters, you've got to keep the tires on the ground.

The engine skid plate is PLASTIC. I don't think it even has any protection whatsoever for the transmission and center diff and certainly no rock rails. Are the airbox and air intake mounted high to avoid water ingestion?

The pictures below illustrate how pathetic the Cayenne's articulation is.

Pathetic articulation. Now I'd still take a Cayenne but I wouldn't be under the illusion that it's a great offroader. It's a poser-mobile. Now I wish everybody would stop saying it's such a great offroader just because their marketing keeps telling you it is.

A real offroader flexes like this:

Have you ever offroaded? Have you driven with water up to your headlights? Have you ever waded in mud up to your hips to attach a tow strap? I have. The Cayenne isn't made for that kind of stuff.

 

[InfinitiDude]

Did you see the Top Gear episode of the Cayenne? No, its not built for off-roading, but that certainly does nto mean it cant do it.

No, its not the greatest. But i want to see any other sport SUV do that. Jeeps are stricktly off-road. And plus not many Grand Cherokee owners off-road either. Its hard on cars, period.

But i'd like to see a Jeep (other than the SRT-8) go around a track fast. Or take a turn fast. No, its suspension would flip it over.

They dont have much travel because they dont need alot for the majority of their driving, on streets. And the occasional corner.

 

[optimusprime]

I'd have an Ariel Atom or a Lotus Elise... because I prefer performance to luxury and agility to speed.

 

[janstett]

No, its not the greatest. But i want to see any other sport SUV do that. Jeeps are stricktly off-road. And plus not many Grand Cherokee owners off-road either. Its hard on cars, period.

But i'd like to see a Jeep (other than the SRT-8) go around a track fast. Or take a turn fast. No, its suspension would flip it over.

They dont have much travel because they dont need alot for the majority of their driving, on streets. And the occasional corner.

I agree with you that they're great for what they are -- fast street SUVs (which is an oxymoron which I feel shouldn't even exist). The only valid use I can find for them is towing your real race car. I don't see much point to an SUV that can't offroad, but there sure are plenty of them out there.

If I want a car that goes around a track fast, or take a turn fast, without tipping over, I'll get a bleeding sports car. I don't want SUVs to be sports cars and sports cars to be SUVs. Jack of all trades, master of none, you know

 

[NAIDANAC A]

Id have to say id go for a Atom, or a Chevy Trailblazer SS. Its fast in a straight line and would be good against RICERS
and it is not as expensive as other fast SUVs.

 

[Dark_Templer_102]

Comeon....A Jeep Liberty is so girly...i would never off road in that.

Trailblazer SS: 0-60 5.7.
Magnum SRT-8 Acceleration 0-62 mph s: 5.0-5.5

If its straight line i would go with SRT-8. Not to mention it has massive pull at higher speeds.

 

[NAIDANAC A]

But magnum is a wagon, and inside it has some blind spots I do not like. Also my dad works at GM so I usually go for GM cars. But the SS is also go for hauling my big fat ass...LOL.

 

[InfinitiDude]

We test drove the trailblazer SS and i loved it. That thing CRUISED. Very fast truck.

The point of fast SUVs is you can pull with them. Haul people in them. put stuff in them, but if you want to, you can blow a honda Civic away at the stop light. Its for a person that needs the space and tow ability, but also has resonable power.

We have the reg Trailblazer and its a POS, but that SS, woah. That thing is CRAZY.

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[bartboy9891]

Comeon....A Jeep Liberty is so girly...i would never off road in that.

Trailblazer SS: 0-60 5.7.
Magnum SRT-8 Acceleration 0-62 mph s: 5.0-5.5

If its straight line i would go with SRT-8. Not to mention it has massive pull at higher speeds.

if you want a quick SUV for a little bit more cash you might as well go for the Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT-8. It may not have the towing capabilities of the Trailblazer SS, but the SRT-8 its been tested at 0-60 in 4.9 seconds! It is, however, completely worthless offroad now.

 

[Ianspeed]

Hey. Thats my choice too. Unless its used. Then I'd probably do up a E34 M5 (the one in Ronin among other movies) with a rebuilt engine with all the trimmings.

I'd still have ~ 10k for gass too.

 

[Wizegui]

^If you want some speed, thats not the car for you. We got one as a loner, same thing even with aero package. The back seat was as hard as a rock, it accelerated like crap, and even in higher gears it was slower than piss.

Trust me, its not that great of a car lol. Looks are good, interior looks nice, but when you sit in it its uncomfortable, everything looks fine, its the engine, interior lol

Crap now ive got to finda new dream car. I was so excited about actually getting one when I could afford it .....

Nah fast SUVs are kind of pointless in my opinion. You either have a sports car or a car that can climb rocks and rivers.

 

[janstett]

Comeon....A Jeep Liberty is so girly...

Interesting you say that, because indeed the driver in that picture was indeed a girl... And she's got bigger balls than Cayenne drivers apparently, by that picture.

Are you completely missing the point? Look at those pictures again -- you see a might Porsche that would be perfect if it was upside down with its tires in the air like a dead bug; I see a fake SUV that is so tightly suspended that it can't even stay planted on the slightest terrain change. The Cayenne/Toureg has one or more wheels dangling helplessly in the air while even the girly Liberty flexes enough to stay planted on Terra firma? Stop worrying about the Stuttgart badge and look at the performance in those pictures. 4WD is pointless if you can't keep the rubber on the ground, which the Cayenne and Toureg are completely inept at. As I pointed out, the low ride height and PLASTIC engine skid plate and lack of protection beyond that mean EXPENSIVE DAMAGE when you hit the rocks.

i would never off road in that.

Coming from someone who has likely never offroaded at all, whatsoever, I'm not very impressed with your powers of discrimination. I have offroaded in my "girly" Liberty and know what it can do... I also have some clue about what happens when you go offroading as a result, I'm not basing my opinion on tv shows, videos, or internet discussion forums.

A good website for seeing people actually offroad with their Libertys is this: www.lostkjs.com.

So when I say the Cayenne/Toureg won't cut it, I speak from experience, not marketing babble or watching videos.

http://img45.imageshack.**/img45/3343/097hd6.jpg

http://img45.imageshack.**/img45/285/068mw1.jpg


But I'll tell you what, if Porsche wants to send a Cayenne to a place like Paragon Park (www.paragonap.com) I'd love to see if it can survive the parking lot let alone the trails.

Plea to Top Gear staff!

Send Jeremy to offroading haven Paragon Park in Hazleton, PA with a fleet of 4x4s, to see which ones would make it out alive (Land Rover) and which ones wouldn't (X5, Cayenne, et al).

 

[sandor_]

1) i know nothing about off-roading
2) i know the off-road package for the hot pepper gets you a steel skid plate, sideplates and a few other do-dads (100% locking rear<->front diff and 100% locking rear dif, electronically engaging/disengaging rear/front anti sway bars, pneumatic 10 inch ride height)

as far as keeping all four wheels on the ground (this is an honest question) if the drivetrain can completely eliminate power flowing to the hanging wheel, does it matter? how much does after-market adjusting come in? driver skill? i've seen douches take their high end SUVs off road on the stock (road) tires and they perform like shit... my friend (way back in high school) could take his CJ-5 on 36" mudders absolutely anywhere, granted over 55 mph the thing felt like it was about to explode

 

[sandor_]

btw i'm of the mind the cayenne is basically retarded, but understand the boost it gave Porsche monetarily. if i ever got into off roading, i think i would want a CJ (i love the look) and i would definitely rather have a car as a go-fast-mobile vs a cayenne (no matter how many sports cars it can lap on the track)

 

[un-dee]

I don't know about the Cayenne, but the Touareg is a very good off-roader and proved to be so. Only corners they had to cut is that it doesn't have rigid axles, which can be helpful in rough terrain but makes it an awful road car.


I have some offroading experience, but only from Army Vehicles. I still think the Touareg and the Cayenne do a great job, especially considering what they are: Luxury SUVs.
I agree that they are driven mostly bu retarded posers, but that doesn't reduce my respect for the car itself. Kinda like with the M3: Great car, driven by morons.

 

[HuevosRancheros]

<------

 

[janstett]

1) i know nothing about off-roading
2) i know the off-road package for the hot pepper gets you a steel skid plate, sideplates and a few other do-dads (100% locking rear<->front diff and 100% locking rear dif, electronically engaging/disengaging rear/front anti sway bars, pneumatic 10 inch ride height)

As I understand, in best equipped trim, the Toureg and Cayenne both get full locking differentials (center, rear). The disconnecting sway bar may help with the poor articulation (I'm curious to see pics with the sway bar disco).

The locking diff is important because an "AWD" car such as the T-reg/Cay (i.e. no transfer case but instead a center differential) is, in fact, not 4WD but 1WD. At any given point only one wheel is being powered. In a 4wd vehicle with a transfer case, you get a low-range 4-lo with monstrous torque multiplication and a guarantee that 1 front wheel and 1 back wheel get power split evenly. That's with open front/rear diffs. Then you start locking the rear to split the rear power evenly to drive both wheels locked together, and finally the front locker to do the same up front.

This is also why 4x4s with a transfer case have what's called "part time" 4wd and shouldn't be used on dry pavement in 4wd mode. The center diff action doesn't exist and on a non-pliable surface you will get binding of the transmission.

as far as keeping all four wheels on the ground (this is an honest question) if the drivetrain can completely eliminate power flowing to the hanging wheel, does it matter? how much does after-market adjusting come in? driver skill? i've seen douches take their high end SUVs off road on the stock (road) tires and they perform like shit... my friend (way back in high school) could take his CJ-5 on 36" mudders absolutely anywhere, granted over 55 mph the thing felt like it was about to explode

There are two answers to the question. First, to get anywhere when offroading, it is very important to keep all four wheels on the ground. Ignoring the differential/locking traction issues, a tire can't give you grip if it's dangling in the air. So in rough, rocky, slippery terrain, you are throwing away vital traction. You are also balancing a several-ton vehicle like a tripod, making it balance precariously and inherently unstable, and when it comes down, it will come down HARD and do damage. Having one or more wheels dangling in the air also means the opposite axle is going to be nose-diving into the dirt which further ruins your chances of proceeding in bad terrain.

The second part of the answer deals with locking. If a vehicle is not locked, getting the wrong two wheels in the air means you are completely, unmovably stuck because the diffs will never send power to the wheels that are on the ground (diffs send power to the outside wheels, i.e. the wheels turning faster, i.e. the wheels dangling in the air). When you add a locker (mechanical or electronic) you can lock the axle together or get smart about power delivery in 4wd mode.

So, yes, driver skill is a big part of offroading. A good driver in a stock Wrangler Rubicon can do things a yahoo in a better vehicle cannot. In rock crawling, it's patience, a good 3D image of the vehicle wheelbase and undercarriage, and being able to select a good line through the environment. Having at least an All-terrain tire, or better a Mud-terrain tire, helps. Aftermarket equipment helps (lift, additional skid plate protection, rock rails (aka sliders) that protect your rockers in case you slam down on the rocks, lockers, et al).

So, yes, for traction, balance, and pitch reasons, ignoring power delivery, it's still important to keep rubber on the road. Think of offroading in the same way you think about racing (seems silly, but it works). If a sports car lifts a wheel in cornering, it means the vehicle has just lost 1/4 of its potential traction, and worse it means the vehicle is undergoing a significant pitch/yaw. I've noticed while autocrossing that lifting the inside rear wheel under hard cornering is a family trait of all Volkswagens and Nissan Sentras.

 

[Sir Stiggington]

Ya... like you couldnt have guessed Thats the exact color I want for my MR too.

Same

 

[BMWPower.lv]

I've allready my dream car - BMW M3.

But if to choose another one, then this:

Radical. ~ 40k $

Just to enjoy on track, because that M3 is too heavy...

 

[sandor_]

1) i know nothing about off-roading
2) i know the off-road package for the hot pepper gets you a steel skid plate, sideplates and a few other do-dads (100% locking rear<->front diff and 100% locking rear dif, electronically engaging/disengaging rear/front anti sway bars, pneumatic 10 inch ride height)

As I understand, in best equipped trim, the Toureg and Cayenne both get full locking differentials (center, rear). The disconnecting sway bar may help with the poor articulation (I'm curious to see pics with the sway bar disco).

The locking diff is important because an "AWD" car such as the T-reg/Cay (i.e. no transfer case but instead a center differential) is, in fact, not 4WD but 1WD. At any given point only one wheel is being powered. In a 4wd vehicle with a transfer case, you get a low-range 4-lo with monstrous torque multiplication and a guarantee that 1 front wheel and 1 back wheel get power split evenly. That's with open front/rear diffs. Then you start locking the rear to split the rear power evenly to drive both wheels locked together, and finally the front locker to do the same up front.

This is also why 4x4s with a transfer case have what's called "part time" 4wd and shouldn't be used on dry pavement in 4wd mode. The center diff action doesn't exist and on a non-pliable surface you will get binding of the transmission.

as far as keeping all four wheels on the ground (this is an honest question) if the drivetrain can completely eliminate power flowing to the hanging wheel, does it matter? how much does after-market adjusting come in? driver skill? i've seen douches take their high end SUVs off road on the stock (road) tires and they perform like shit... my friend (way back in high school) could take his CJ-5 on 36" mudders absolutely anywhere, granted over 55 mph the thing felt like it was about to explode

There are two answers to the question. First, to get anywhere when offroading, it is very important to keep all four wheels on the ground. Ignoring the differential/locking traction issues, a tire can't give you grip if it's dangling in the air. So in rough, rocky, slippery terrain, you are throwing away vital traction. You are also balancing a several-ton vehicle like a tripod, making it balance precariously and inherently unstable, and when it comes down, it will come down HARD and do damage. Having one or more wheels dangling in the air also means the opposite axle is going to be nose-diving into the dirt which further ruins your chances of proceeding in bad terrain.

The second part of the answer deals with locking. If a vehicle is not locked, getting the wrong two wheels in the air means you are completely, unmovably stuck because the diffs will never send power to the wheels that are on the ground (diffs send power to the outside wheels, i.e. the wheels turning faster, i.e. the wheels dangling in the air). When you add a locker (mechanical or electronic) you can lock the axle together or get smart about power delivery in 4wd mode.

So, yes, driver skill is a big part of offroading. A good driver in a stock Wrangler Rubicon can do things a yahoo in a better vehicle cannot. In rock crawling, it's patience, a good 3D image of the vehicle wheelbase and undercarriage, and being able to select a good line through the environment. Having at least an All-terrain tire, or better a Mud-terrain tire, helps. Aftermarket equipment helps (lift, additional skid plate protection, rock rails (aka sliders) that protect your rockers in case you slam down on the rocks, lockers, et al).

So, yes, for traction, balance, and pitch reasons, ignoring power delivery, it's still important to keep rubber on the road. Think of offroading in the same way you think about racing (seems silly, but it works). If a sports car lifts a wheel in cornering, it means the vehicle has just lost 1/4 of its potential traction, and worse it means the vehicle is undergoing a significant pitch/yaw. I've noticed while autocrossing that lifting the inside rear wheel under hard cornering is a family trait of all Volkswagens and Nissan Sentras.

good deal. and thanks for the explanation.