superchevy
Well-Known Member
this is some bullshit. let the damn girl wear the veil.
UK Schoolgirl loses veil legal case
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watisdis
Coppin' a feel
He wasn't stereotyping, he was just telling his friend's real life experiences and (perfectly valid) conclusions. Stereotyping can only occur if there is no experience in the matter in question, but one still makes assumptions. It's true that racism and prejudice are common everywhere unfortunately.
Arguers also often link the slippery slope fallacy to the straw man fallacy in order to attack the initial position:
1. A has occurred (or will or might occur); therefore
2. B will inevitably happen. (slippery slope)
3. B is wrong; therefore
4. A is wrong. (straw man)
This form of argument often provides evaluative judgments on social change: once an exception is made to some rule, nothing will hold back further, more egregious exceptions to that rule.
Note that these arguments may indeed have validity, but they require some independent justification of the connection between their terms: otherwise the argument (as a logical tool) remains fallacious. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope#The_slippery_slope_as_fallacy
zenkidori
Banned For Trolling
Thank you for pointing that out, and it is unfortunate that such behavoir is so commonplace.
my theory is that in most places in the US you're going to have odd and different neighbors and people in your community who are very very different to you, and apart from the various ghettos and the south of course you need to either get used to it or move, so most of us grow up knowing that some people are different and that's the way they are, so whatever, most people don't care and if they do they know enough to keep thier opinions to themselves. My friend has told me on several occasions that europeans are ok so long as you look(via dress, not necessarily race, but race also in some cases) the same and act the same, but you can't really do your own thing without being excluded or someone saying something or whatever. Now I'm sure this isn't the case everywhere, but this is what he experienced and because of such experiences he has stated he would never return to europe. He always tells me it would be fun for me, but not for him(if you're curious the countries I know he's been to are france, germany, england and spain).
So religious expression is banned in Turkey? Do they tax churches as well? is evangelism illegal?
I think one of the problems with this issue is that forced coverings are seen as restrictive and possibly demeaning towards women when that isn't the Islamic thought or intention.
Ford Prefect
Well-Known Member
no, on the contrary, it is merely kept separate from education and politics...
it actually has very little to do with the religion itself, as the Koran doesn?t say anywhere that women need to cover themselves (at least that?s what I?ve been told)... it?s more to do with the cultural heritage of most muslim countries...
Micra
Not A Dude
I'm missing a very important part in this discussion. Maybe that's because all the people who have replied so far are male. Anyway.
First off, stop making this about religion. The use of niqaabs/burkas/etc. is not in the Koran, it is a CULTURAL matter. The koran itself (like the Bible and other religious writings) is a set of rules and regulations based on islamic culture as it was at the time the book was written. This culture, a culture in which MEN decided everything and in which MEN controlled women through restrictions they claimed to be made by Mohammed himself burkas, circumcision and all that stuff about women not being allowed to go anywhere without a male companion is not in the Koran I believe), has persisted or resurfaced in some countries (Afghanistan etc.) but in most countries has evolved to modern times. Just like you can't take everything in the Bible literally anymore (Leviticus anyone?) so the ways in which the Koran should be interpreted have changed.
Furthermore and more importantly, we here in the "rich west" live in a democratic culture in which it is established BY LAW that men and women are EQUAL (in practice that means "strive to be equal"). And since niqaabs etc. are designed (by men) to cover up (suppress) women, therefore to deprive them of the right to show themselves and to wear whatever they want, a right that men DO have, they violate the constitutional article that men and women are equal. If people come to a democratic country to live there, they should at least respect this rule IN PUBLIC. Just like if I would go to Egypt for example, I would have to wear a headscarf and probably a veil because the culture IN THAT COUNTRY demands it.
Also, the girl in the article wasn't deprived completely of ways to express her religion, she was still allowed to wear a headscarf. Have you ever stopped to think that she might have made such a ruckus about this not because she wasn't allowed to wear the thing, but because it might be her only way to protest against her and others having to wear it? I suppose that if she's in a family that supports niqaabs she couldn't just say "I'm not wearing that". Bottom line: niqaabs are a device of a culture that suppresses women, even in western countries, and as such have no place in a democratic society with equality of men and women (and don't get me started on how much emancipation still needs to be done here, that's another discussion).
First off, stop making this about religion. The use of niqaabs/burkas/etc. is not in the Koran, it is a CULTURAL matter. The koran itself (like the Bible and other religious writings) is a set of rules and regulations based on islamic culture as it was at the time the book was written. This culture, a culture in which MEN decided everything and in which MEN controlled women through restrictions they claimed to be made by Mohammed himself burkas, circumcision and all that stuff about women not being allowed to go anywhere without a male companion is not in the Koran I believe), has persisted or resurfaced in some countries (Afghanistan etc.) but in most countries has evolved to modern times. Just like you can't take everything in the Bible literally anymore (Leviticus anyone?) so the ways in which the Koran should be interpreted have changed.
Furthermore and more importantly, we here in the "rich west" live in a democratic culture in which it is established BY LAW that men and women are EQUAL (in practice that means "strive to be equal"). And since niqaabs etc. are designed (by men) to cover up (suppress) women, therefore to deprive them of the right to show themselves and to wear whatever they want, a right that men DO have, they violate the constitutional article that men and women are equal. If people come to a democratic country to live there, they should at least respect this rule IN PUBLIC. Just like if I would go to Egypt for example, I would have to wear a headscarf and probably a veil because the culture IN THAT COUNTRY demands it.
Also, the girl in the article wasn't deprived completely of ways to express her religion, she was still allowed to wear a headscarf. Have you ever stopped to think that she might have made such a ruckus about this not because she wasn't allowed to wear the thing, but because it might be her only way to protest against her and others having to wear it? I suppose that if she's in a family that supports niqaabs she couldn't just say "I'm not wearing that". Bottom line: niqaabs are a device of a culture that suppresses women, even in western countries, and as such have no place in a democratic society with equality of men and women (and don't get me started on how much emancipation still needs to be done here, that's another discussion).
chaos386
.sa = bad driver!
I'm a little torn on this issue. On the one hand, I can see how the veil can be a hindrance to the school, because a lot of people use faces to identify others, and a veil prevents that. On the other hand, I strongly disagree that expression (including religious expression) should be kept out of schools. It's that sort of thinking that marginalizes students who are "different", sometimes forcing them to attend different schools. I think this is bad for the "normal" students as well, because it fools them into thinking everyone is supposed to look and act a certain way, making them less tolerant of others, or, if they themselves don't fit the mold perfectly (which is likely), think that something is wrong with them.
You know what? I'm sick of hearing people whine about muslim women wearing a headscarf being some sort of oppression thing. Have you people ever noticed that muslim men also cover their hair? Did you ever stop to think that Arab dress styles were culturally derived as protections from the elements (sand, intense sun & heat)? And no, you wouldn't be forced to cover your hair in Egypt. You wouldn't even be forced to here, and this country is one of the strictest with regards to clothing.
Wait....WHAT?
I guess I must be imagining the university I'm currently attending for free.
You know what? I'm sick of hearing people whine about muslim women wearing a headscarf being some sort of oppression thing. Have you people ever noticed that muslim men also cover their hair? Did you ever stop to think that Arab dress styles were culturally derived as protections from the elements (sand, intense sun & heat)? And no, you wouldn't be forced to cover your hair in Egypt. You wouldn't even be forced to here, and this country is one of the strictest with regards to clothing.
Wait....WHAT?
I guess I must be imagining the university I'm currently attending for free.
nomix
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Well that's not true. If you have an experience with some people, and take conclusions that everyone in Europe is that way, because of that, that's a stereotype. It's the same as me saying all Pakistanis in Norway rob 7/11s, because a couple of them pulled a knife and pushed it on my cousins main arteria, before beating him and restricting him with ropes.
You see, personal impressions and personal experiences isn't all that relevant in the big picture. If you live in California, and have never been out of California, your experience with the rest of the US isn't good enough to comment on cultural stuff in Utah. I can't comment on how culture is in Bergen, the second largest city in Norway, because I've never been there.
You can't take one experience of Europe, and use it to say "Europe generally is like this".
That is, a stereotype.
Micra
Not A Dude
I wasn't talking about headscarves, those are OK as far as I'm concerned. I was talking about niqaabs, that cover the woman entirely. I may have been informed wrong, but AFAIK women wear (or are made to wear) those things so that only their husbands may see them and they will not attract the attention of other men. I know that arab clothing is for protection against the sun. Now answer me this: if niqaabs are not to restrict or oppress women, why don't men wear them too, hmmm? If it's actually just protection against the sun?
Oh, and I know quite a few women who went to Egypt and stayed in people's homes rather than in hotels. They were told (OK, not forced, but still) to put on a headscarf and cover their shoulders, arms and legs so as not to offend anybody.
Nomix: if that's true then we shouldn't be having this political discussion forum, should we?
zenkidori
Banned For Trolling
you've hit the nail on the head with regards to the misconception I was just talking about. The reason women have to cover themselves up has NOTHING at all to do with oppressing them, and you may be interested to know that men also need to wear certain coverings. The purpose as I understand it of such coverings is to help stop sexual arousal of the opposite sex. so men must cover up what they have determined arouses women, and women must cover up what arouses men, and since men are far more visual by nature, does it really surprise you that the dress for women is more extensive? Also, the laws about women needing escorts and such were to PROTECT women, not oppress them.
and this strikes you as wrong? all the women in my school who went to egypt for study had to do the same thing, it's simply a matter of respecting thier culture. They were only going to be there for a short time and it's not thier country, so why wouldn't you respect the local customs?
Ford Prefect
Well-Known Member
thats interesting... whenever I heard about women I know visiting Saudi Arabia they all had to wear veils when they walked around anywhere but inside hotels, embassies, and private homes... is this a new development or something?
ok so basically all these rules have a very practical background that actually makes a lot of sense, which is probably also why women aren?t allowed to drive cars in Saudi Arabia (chaos you?re welcome to correct me if this has changed recently), because as we all know women are horrible drivers...
*end of irony mode*
you?re absolutely right, but then what about my culture? what if I feel uncomfortable talking to someone whose face I cannot see?
watisdis
Coppin' a feel
First off his friend didn't base his opinion (not stereotype) on one experience but several, repeated slurs in several different countries in Europe. It's not like your cousins experience where it was a one chance incident. Keep in mind that the slurs happend to him not you or me so we can't tell him, "Hey man, you shouldn't feel this way because of so and so reasons." He has every right to feel the way he does and express it without being called a stereotype. I personaly know that not every one in Europe is like that. If your cousin had repeated experiences like the one he had at 7/11 happen to him over and over again, then he too could say ,"It's my opinion that all Pakistanis are ...."
nomix
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About outsiders having to wear a veil.
When you visit another culture, it's just common sense to adjust to that culture. If you go to the Greek part of Cypres, you don't tell every person you meet that they should advocate Turkish ruling of the whole Island, if you're going to a football pub in Trondheim for Rosenborg, and you're wearing a shirt for another club, shouting about your team, you do know people are going to be upset?
In all these cases, free speech comes into use, but at the same time, common sense should be used. Culture is culture, it's damned hard to change that, and for the time being, one must just try to adjust.
If veils are generally used for opression, that's bad. But if the girl wishes to wear it, she should be alloved to.
That is the principle of this case, it's as easy as that.
watisdis: It's still a stereotype, your friend would have focused on those who does that, not those who didn't. There are stupid, ignorant, prejudicial people in every country. The fact of the matter is, that personal experiences, no matter the size of them, will allways be limited by the fact that they are only personal experiences. A country is as diverse as the number of people in it.
Therefore, personal experiences isn't enough to put a lable on a country, a culture, a continent. If you think, or you friend think, your friend's personal experiences in some countries is enough to label Europe in a surtain way, that is a stereotype.
When you visit another culture, it's just common sense to adjust to that culture. If you go to the Greek part of Cypres, you don't tell every person you meet that they should advocate Turkish ruling of the whole Island, if you're going to a football pub in Trondheim for Rosenborg, and you're wearing a shirt for another club, shouting about your team, you do know people are going to be upset?
In all these cases, free speech comes into use, but at the same time, common sense should be used. Culture is culture, it's damned hard to change that, and for the time being, one must just try to adjust.
If veils are generally used for opression, that's bad. But if the girl wishes to wear it, she should be alloved to.
That is the principle of this case, it's as easy as that.
watisdis: It's still a stereotype, your friend would have focused on those who does that, not those who didn't. There are stupid, ignorant, prejudicial people in every country. The fact of the matter is, that personal experiences, no matter the size of them, will allways be limited by the fact that they are only personal experiences. A country is as diverse as the number of people in it.
Therefore, personal experiences isn't enough to put a lable on a country, a culture, a continent. If you think, or you friend think, your friend's personal experiences in some countries is enough to label Europe in a surtain way, that is a stereotype.
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Micra
Not A Dude
I didn't say respecting another culture was wrong. What I said was that if people come to a European country they should respect European customs (in this case not wear a niqaab to school) just like Europeans should respect Muslim customs if they go visit a Muslim country.
Exactly. You said it yourself, it's about covering up what MEN think is arousing. Nobody asks the women. And the fact that women should need to cover themselves up and have escorts so that men won't rape them on the spot is ludicrous. That fact alone is proof that Muslim women are considered objects up for grabs if they don't comply to men-made rules.
If you were told to wear a certain type of clothing and were not allowed to do anything or go anywhere or even look at someone without someone of the other sex present, I guarantee you you'll soon feel oppressed. And if women don't feel oppressed it's because they don't know any better or because they're too afraid to get cast out or killed for not being a good Muslim (do Muslim men face the same punishment when breaking the rules?). Just like women want to have their daughters circumcised, even though they've been through that hell themselves. Not being a good Muslim is infinitely more scary then being oppressed.
Anyway, yes, men are also bound by rules, but men wear a certain type of clothes because they choose to, women because they're made to.
Exactly. You said it yourself, it's about covering up what MEN think is arousing. Nobody asks the women. And the fact that women should need to cover themselves up and have escorts so that men won't rape them on the spot is ludicrous. That fact alone is proof that Muslim women are considered objects up for grabs if they don't comply to men-made rules.
If you were told to wear a certain type of clothing and were not allowed to do anything or go anywhere or even look at someone without someone of the other sex present, I guarantee you you'll soon feel oppressed. And if women don't feel oppressed it's because they don't know any better or because they're too afraid to get cast out or killed for not being a good Muslim (do Muslim men face the same punishment when breaking the rules?). Just like women want to have their daughters circumcised, even though they've been through that hell themselves. Not being a good Muslim is infinitely more scary then being oppressed.
Anyway, yes, men are also bound by rules, but men wear a certain type of clothes because they choose to, women because they're made to.
SuperStalin
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You've drifted away from the original subject matter.
It's not about whether muslim women should wear a veil or not,
it's about PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS and RELIGIOUS PRACTICES.
I'm 100% ok with muslim women wearing whatever they want,
or whatever they're forced to wear by their fathers and husbands,
it doesn't concern me.
On the other hand, if a muslim woman was working as a doctor,
or a police officer, or a teacher, or a fireman etc.
Photos in her passport and ID should not be with her face covered.
Common sense, people!
Same goes for schools. Public schools should not be a place for religion,
or traditionalist bullshit but for education.
It's not about whether muslim women should wear a veil or not,
it's about PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS and RELIGIOUS PRACTICES.
I'm 100% ok with muslim women wearing whatever they want,
or whatever they're forced to wear by their fathers and husbands,
it doesn't concern me.
On the other hand, if a muslim woman was working as a doctor,
or a police officer, or a teacher, or a fireman etc.
Photos in her passport and ID should not be with her face covered.
Common sense, people!
Same goes for schools. Public schools should not be a place for religion,
or traditionalist bullshit but for education.
watisdis
Coppin' a feel
^This is essentially the problem with multi-culturalism. Once somebody whines/bitches about their "feelings" and "my culture" the deal goes to hell. In order for multi-culturalism to work, there has to be assimilation. If you move to another country with a different culture than yours, you should try to adopt to your new surroundings, laws, and cultural norms as best you can; not the other way around. Now I know idealy everyone would like to keep all their cultural identities intact but your going to accept the fact that this is not always possible. This is political correctness run amok.
watisdis
Coppin' a feel
Ugh......we're going in circles. whatever. I don't really care.
zenkidori
Banned For Trolling
exactly.
are you some bra burning feminist militant wierdo or just quasi-retarded? did you not notice that MEN have RESTRICTIONS just like women based on what WOMEN think is arousing? If you don't really know WTF you are talking about perhaps you should stay out of the discussion.
perhaps this is true, but then you don't really know now do you?
except for you're wrong.
zenkidori
Banned For Trolling
bingo.
Micra
Not A Dude
SuperStalin and Watisdis: thank you, that's exactly what I meant. Except maybe for the "it doesn't concern me" part, but that's a whole other debate.
Zenkidori: I base my arguments on what I read in the papers and see in documentaries and the news. Now I'm sure some of those sources are biased, but I don't exactly live anywhere near those countries and I admit I don't know any Muslims personally (and that's not a conscious choice, I just don't meet any Muslims where I live and work), so what else am I supposed to get my information from? Also, please don't go questioning my mental abilities just because I see things differently than you. Do you know for sure what the motivations for Muslim people to dress and act the way they do are? Are you a Muslim yourself?
Zenkidori: I base my arguments on what I read in the papers and see in documentaries and the news. Now I'm sure some of those sources are biased, but I don't exactly live anywhere near those countries and I admit I don't know any Muslims personally (and that's not a conscious choice, I just don't meet any Muslims where I live and work), so what else am I supposed to get my information from? Also, please don't go questioning my mental abilities just because I see things differently than you. Do you know for sure what the motivations for Muslim people to dress and act the way they do are? Are you a Muslim yourself?
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otispunkmeyer
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good
im sick of muslims trying to muscle in and run this country. and im sick of tony and his multicultural bonanza bending over backwards to cater for them. its not on.
they wanna live here, they should live like us.
they can wear the veil in their own time, school, hospitals, airports are just not the place to wear them in todays climate. i think the muslims should at least respect that. after all tony let them come live here,they should show a little gratitude in return
im sick of muslims trying to muscle in and run this country. and im sick of tony and his multicultural bonanza bending over backwards to cater for them. its not on.
they wanna live here, they should live like us.
they can wear the veil in their own time, school, hospitals, airports are just not the place to wear them in todays climate. i think the muslims should at least respect that. after all tony let them come live here,they should show a little gratitude in return
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