Handicap system

[ESPNSTI]

The other thing is that driving styles are different.
Occasionally when you initially drive with a WR setup, you can't imagine how on earth they can keep it on the track.
In that case play with the setup a bit until it feels stable.
You might think you might be slower if you do that, but often you actually end up being faster.

Aside from that, what's really important too is that you have a good framerate and that you're controls aren't too sensitive.

edit by pdanev: Made a new thread for the handicap discussion.

On a different note, I've always wondered if we shouldn't think about using some sort of handicap system.
You know, something like a faster person starts x number of seconds after a slower one.

[pdanev]

I'm in for a handicap system! What exactly do you have in mind ESPN and more importanly how could we implement it in LFS?

[andyhui01]

I don't mind a handicap system as well...

I think we should just implement the handicap times after the race... just add number of seconds to it or should we implement handicap systems as in say espnsti and pdanev need to take another pit..... etc

[ESPNSTI]

Originally Posted by pdanev

I'm in for a handicap system! What exactly do you have in mind ESPN and more importanly how could we implement it in LFS?

I haven't given it a lot of thought, so I don't have a plan or anything like that.

But the way I see it, you would have two components:
- How to handicap people
- How to determine who gets handicapped and at what level

As for how to handicap, I see several possibilities:
- Make faster people wait at the start for a certain number of seconds. (hard to enforce)
- Make faster people pit more than once. (Or one or more pit drivethroughs)
- Add passengers (not available in all cars, and it might lead to forgetting to take them out, etc...)
- Add a number of seconds to the total time of faster people , and compare times to see who wins.
- Put faster people in slower cars

How to determine the handicap:
- Use previous race results.
For example, 1st and 2nd of previous race get handicapped at level A, 3rd and 4th at level B, etc..
- Use previous race average or best lap time differences.
For example if you're at 100%-105% of the best lap, you get handicapped at level A, 106%-110%, level B, etc...
- Use previous race finish differences.
For example if you finished 10 seconds behind in the previous race, you now get to start 10 seconds ahead.

Don't know, I think it will be difficult to come up with a good working system, but I also think that if it is a good one, it will make for very exciting races.

[andyhui01]

Originally Posted by ESPNSTI

For example if you finished 10 seconds behind in the previous race, you now get to start 10 seconds ahead.

I actually like this... but drive through's seem easier to manage... and to enfore handicap's... why don't we look at all the races so far ... I personally prefer the drive through because its easy to manage plus on GTR cars, the drive through time is about 100% standard as I believe everyone uses the limiter

[ESPNSTI]

Looking at all races makes sense to me.
And a drive through probably would be the most practical.

[pdanev]

Originally Posted by ESPNSTI

As for how to handicap, I see several possibilities:
- Make faster people wait at the start for a certain number of seconds. (hard to enforce)

Indeed, would be impossible to enforce.

Originally Posted by ESPNSTI

- Make faster people pit more than once. (Or one or more pit drivethroughs)

Drive through would work. Easy to enforce. However it would mean that all the popele who are handicapped, get the same handicap.

Originally Posted by ESPNSTI

- Add passengers (not available in all cars, and it might lead to forgetting to take them out, etc...)

Does it actually add weight in S2? Iirc in S1 it didn't really matter.

Originally Posted by ESPNSTI

How to determine the handicap:
- Use previous race results.
For example, 1st and 2nd of previous race get handicapped at level A, 3rd and 4th at level B, etc..
- Use previous race average or best lap time differences.
For example if you're at 100%-105% of the best lap, you get handicapped at level A, 106%-110%, level B, etc...

This + as Andy mentioned, taking into account the current league ranking = more or less the WTCC way of handicapping.

Originally Posted by ESPNSTI

- Use previous race finish differences.
For example if you finished 10 seconds behind in the previous race, you now get to start 10 seconds ahead.

This wouldn't really work imo. If the leader in the races has for example 1/2minute advantage, he could slow down in the last lap before the finish straight to get rid of his advantage/handicap. + It's also hard to enforce.

I believe introducing a handicap system in LFS has been suggested a few times on the RSC forum, and iirc the developers were planning to do something about it.

I think to work out a system of assigning the proper handicap to each races is easier to come up with, than to come up with what could be used as the actual handicapp in LFS itself.

[andyhui01]

but there is another problem... handicap varies greatly from track to track... for example in bwgp, all of us were within 2seconds of each other wherelese in SO long it was like 10... so say if I got a handicap in bwgp based on SO long... I'm pretty sure I would do well

[pdanev]

That is true again...No idea how to overcome that.

[andyhui01]

I think the passenger is a great way to handicap... I've seen that done before in LFS races

[MXM]

I'm for the idea, but handicap will make it sooo much complicated. There's no simple way to do it properly.

Ideal way would be to lower car's power for fast people, but that's of course impossible now. You can compensate it by adding passangers though, no idea how that affects the performance, and not on all cars.

Drive through is easy way, but not correct. It would be pain in the ass to determine who drives through pits on which tracks and how many times. Because you can't fine-tune the time lost there, it would be more punishing for some than the others.

Adjusting finishing time is one way, but this is not a rally, I would like to race my competitors, and knowing that when I overtake someone, I gain a position without calculating time penalty.

And now my suggestion:
Rethink the points system. Let's race like we always do, race results will stay like they are, but slower people get more points for same position than faster people.

Pros:
- It can be easily scaled and fine tuned for each driver
- When you place 3rd in the race you actually know that you was that fast not because of handicap system, making it easier to evaluate your skills and determine your points multiplier (people get better eventually)
- It's possible to keep 2 points tables, raw results and corrected results, which is not possible with "physical" handicap like drive through and slowing down cars, where you never know how fast you really are.

Cons:
- It will not make races any more exciting, we just need more people for that.
- Somebody has to figure out the points multipliers, hell of a job. One race is not enough, a lot of statistics is needed to make it correct (lfsworld can help?). That will also be the problem when new drivers come along.

[andyhui01]

Originally Posted by MXM

- It will not make races any more exciting, we just need more people for that.

anyone reading this?.... I honestly miss the demo days when we had 10+ people... maybe towards the end of the league, we should do a demo race with alot of people as the finale race?

[Viper007Bond]

I could use like a 10 minute head start if I were to race again.

[pdanev]

I did a search on "handicap" on the RSC forum, and the only option that seems to work is adding passangers. Adding more fuel is also an option, but that can not be verified by looking at the replay, because F12 doesnt work for other than your own car.

[pdanev]

Originally Posted by andyhui01

anyone reading this?.... I honestly miss the demo days when we had 10+ people... maybe towards the end of the league, we should do a demo race with alot of people as the finale race?

That won't help things. We had a lot of racers in S1 demo days, but I don't think most of us bought the game to race BW 24/7. Those racers that were lost in the transition process from S1->S2, shout in every now and than "I miss BW", "Let's race BW" etc. When we did that, 1/2 of the BW supporters didn't even turn up, and the other 1/2 that made an appearance, left after 5minutes saying oh god I suck, oh go why are you guys so fast etc.

There is nothing that can make people race more often, other than their own will to spend 1/2hour every now and then practicing, rather than just joining in once a month for 5 minutes and wondering why they suck.

Yes yes I know, work, school etc etc etc, but all of us have that. Some of us are willing to spend more time @ LFS than others, but I honestly think that if you want to have fun and be competitive, you will be able to find those 1-2hours of weekly free time, to look at a WR replay, download a setup, and make a few laps.

[andyhui01]

honestly... I think that saying you have school and stuff is just a load of BS... besides the weekly races, I spend about an hour to 2 extra practicing and thats about it... so all the practice I have is that + practice races before real race... I have a girlfriend that lives with me + loads of work piling up + loads of other stuff( I live alone so managing the house a quite abit of work) and I still find time to race...c'mon people... spend 1 less night going out, use the money to buy LFS and enjoy every sat night

[MXM]

Originally Posted by andyhui01

...and enjoy every sat night

[pdanev]

PWNED!

But back on topic. There's one problem with taking into acount league standings/points. There are only 6 of us or so that race regularly. (Firefox, MXM, Espn, Mischief, Andy, and me). So if someone that has only raced only 1-2times so far, would get a big advantage. (although now thinking about it, even if he wins the race it wont matter that much as the person won't be competing for a good overall place anyway)

[andyhui01]

lol... I have nothing to say... the track being undrivable + waking up at 4am... its not easy