Nurburgring lap times - bikes and cars for comparison

[marcel911]

Hello everyone,
What's the best lap time on Nordschleife for production bike? I've read that the fastest car was the Carrera GT with 7:32, what about best production bikes?

[Ford Prefect]

well the record holder on a bike is Helmut Dähne, who did a 7:49 in the early 90ies

this record will probably never be beaten, as the only time bikes are allowed on the Nordschleife is during the tourist driving sessions, where you can´t drive through the long straight (Döttinger Höhe) and, strictly speaking, have to adhere to speed limits at a few parts of the track... it´s also probably not very comparable to modern bikes, since the ring as well as bike technology have changed quite a bit since then...

I´m sure there are unofficial (and illegal) BTG times from insane tourist drivers, but I wouldn´t know what they are...

[marcel911]

Thank's for reply.
Does anyone have best lap times for cars and bikes on some well known european circuit?

[Ford Prefect]

just try google/wikipedia... or compare results from formula 1 and motoGP... some of the tracks are the same...

in general it´s safe to say that a car with a decent power/weight ratio is always gonna be quicker than a motorcycle as there is more contact with the road: 4 tyres simply provide more grip than two, and two (or four) tyres have more traction coming out of corners than one... plus cars can use aerodynamics to make them go round faster...

and while I don´t think it takes more skill to be seriously fast on a motorcycle, it definitely takes more balls, and the margin for errors is significantly smaller...

[laiders]

Fastest lap of the 'ring for a standard production car is 6.55 which Michael Vergers set in the Radical SR8. IIRC outright lap record is 6.28 by Stefan Belof, although it's rumoured he did 6.15 on an (officially) untimed practice lap.

As said above a road bike will never beat a quick road car. Racing bikes are nowhere near racing cars because they are only really much use for going fast in a straight line, braking and cornering is just no match for a car, let alone ground effects.

[D-Fence]

Fastest lap of the 'ring for a standard production car is 6.55 which Michael Vergers set in the Radical SR8

Eh, I thought they didn´t accept it because it was not really "standard production car" ?

[Ultra_Kool_Dude]

The car vs. bike debate is a good one. There have been a million tests on different tracks with different results. Generally, the result is that you have to get into supercar territory before the bike loses.

Examples:
Motocyclist (90's) compared a Yamaha litrebike against a Z06 - bike wins
Motorcyclist (recent) compared a GSX-R 1000 against a Z06 - bike wins
Evo compared a sportbike (forget) against a bunch of cars (M3, Lambo Murc, etc.) - bike wins
Clarkson vid compared an R1 against a 911 C4 - car wins (suspiciously )
Fifth Gear ran 3 tests, I think the bike won 1/3

Some commonalities:
bikes almost always out-accelerate a road car
bikers have a huge disparity in ability (a bike is more difficult to ride fast than a car)

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by Ultra_Kool_Dude

Examples:
Motocyclist (90's) compared a Yamaha litrebike against a Z06 - bike wins
Motorcyclist (recent) compared a GSX-R 1000 against a Z06 - bike wins
Evo compared a sportbike (forget) against a bunch of cars (M3, Lambo Murc, etc.) - bike wins
Clarkson vid compared an R1 against a 911 C4 - car wins (suspiciously )
Fifth Gear ran 3 tests, I think the bike won 1/3

these were on a track???

On the Nordschleife I go faster than 95% of the bikers with a MINI!! and I am neither particularly skilled nor particularly brave...

[Ultra_Kool_Dude]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

these were on a track???

On the Nordschleife I go faster than 95% of the bikers with a MINI!! and I am neither particularly skilled nor particularly brave...

Yeah, they were all on the track.

The problem with bikes though, is that they are hard to ride, hence the reason you're smoking squids on the 'ring.

[Ford Prefect]

which tracks?

I wouldn´t generally say bikes are harder to drive, just easier to kill yourself with... but since this forces you to have a larger safety reserve it obviously makes it harder to master.... especially on the Nordschleife...

I think if you stuck Valentino Rossi on a decent road bike and put Walter Röhrl in a basic sportscar like a GT3, the car would be quicker, at least on the ring... this is obviously purely theoretical though...

it´s a bit like comparing apples and oranges, but an interesting discusion nonetheless...

[Ultra_Kool_Dude]

I know the first two were at Willow Springs, I'm not sure about the rest.

From my experience, and the experience of fellow bikers that I know, the learning curve for riding a bike is much steeper. The power to weight ratio is astronomical compared to nearly any road car, and the contact patch is tiny. Plus you have to deal with leaning and front/rear braking. Sport bikes are like cars with 800hp and twitchy. You can lose the back end in a flash anytime, and you can't slide unless you're godly.

The bike generally is better at at accelerating. For example, most sportbikes will do 0-100mph-0 faster than a 911 will do 0-100mph.

Cars almost always have a better top end and braking.

Once downforce is introduced, bikes are toast.

Edit: Here's a link to the EVO test:
http://www.radicalextremesportscars....ar03/index.php

and laptimes:
LAP TIMES
Jaguar Palmer JP1 67.70sec
Radical SR3 Supersport 68.20sec
Radical SR3-LM Tracksport 72.10sec
Caterham R400 75.20sec
AS One 76.55sec
Honda CBR600RR 76.70sec (only a 600cc bike, which is lowest for common sport bikes)
Noble M12 GTO 3 78.50sec
Blink Motorsport Elise 78.50sec
Ariel Atom R 78.90sec
Revival Motorsport D-Type 79.20sec
Porsche 911 Turbo (450bhp pack) 79.50sec
Lotus Elise 135R 81.30sec
Vauxhall VX220 Turbo 81.50sec
Caterham Academy 82.00sec
Subaru Impreza STi PPP 82.80sec
Renault Clio Cup 86.95sec

Another EVO Car vs Bike test:
http://www.radicalsportscars.com/med...feud/index.php

LAP TIMES

Crescent Suzuki GSX-R1000 1 min 5.4sec
Radical SR3 Tracksport 1 min 5.6sec
Suzuki GSX-R1000 1min 9.0sec
Porsche GT3 1min 10.9sec
Lamborghini Murcielago 1min 11.5sec
BMW M3 CSL 1min 12.0sec

[Ultra_Kool_Dude]

More Data:

Motor magazine and Australian Motorcycle News (Australia) ran two articles comparing bike vs car:

1) '05 Porsche 911 Turbo S vs '05 Suzuki GSXR1000.

Turbo S was driven by an Oz touring car champ.

Gixxer was ridden by a motorcycle journalist.

Track was Wakefield Park http://www.wakefieldpark.com.au/ which is pretty short with not that many straights. Standing start.

Gixxer just beat the Turbo S in the overall time, even though the bike was a bit slower through corners than the car.


2) '05 Porsche 911 Turbo with Gemballa GTR600 package vs '05 Yamaha R1 with racing slicks.

Gemballa was driven by another Oz touring car champ.

R1 was ridden by an oz motorcycle racing champ.

Track was twistier and winder than the Wakefield Park track. Standing start.

R1 just beat the Gemballa, but that was probably more due to the type of track.

[Ultra_Kool_Dude]

This thread has a bunch of magazine articles comparing car vs. bike (scroll down past halfway):

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2509839&page=2

The Road and Track one is especially good. The Fast Bike one "involves" Clarkson.

More Data:
Fastest Lap Times

SUZUKI GSXR 750 – 1’07.80
DUCATI 996 SPS – 1’07.11
YAMAHA YZF600 RACER 1’05.29
CATERHAM – 1’08.28
PORSCHE RS – 1’11.97
FERRARI 355 GTS – 1’11.92

[Ford Prefect]

I see you´ve managed to gather a lot of evidence

I suppose I underestimated bikes a bit... I don´t have time to go through all that now, but I still find it terribly interesting...
I´ll read through it all after my last exam on monday

bikes having better acceleration is a bit of an obvious factor, and as far as I can see probably the only thing in the bikes favor...

come to think of it...whats the drag coefficient of a bike+human?

you´re probably right about the learning curve as well, but I still think the main problem about bikes, on the Nordschleife more than anywhere else I can think of, is the fear factor... if I just so much as imagine the sort of speed you can probably gather approaching the fuchsröhre (bumpy downhill with very slight bends), and then going into the compression at 200+, I want to shit in my pants... galgenkopf, pflanzgarten, and the approach to kesselchen also spring to mind...

[Ultra_Kool_Dude]

I love this kind of discussion

The Road and Track article is the best imo.

I think the 'Ring is a really bad track for a bike because of the shaky surface.

From what I've read, the drag coefficient for a bike is worse than almost anything else on the road (van, truck, etc.).

[Ford Prefect]

and on the ring you don´t have any run-off areas... if you screw up you have about 1 meter of grass, and after that there´s a very nice steel wall... really not a good place to crash

[DarkReaper]

Originally Posted by Ultra_Kool_Dude

From what I've read, the drag coefficient for a bike is worse than almost anything else on the road (van, truck, etc.).

Yeah, the drag coeficient is worse, but the lack of frontal area more than makes up for it. How could you reach 300kmh with only 170hp otherwise

[Ultra_Kool_Dude]

Originally Posted by DarkReaper

How could you reach 300kmh with only 170hp otherwise

Lack of weight.

Just for comparison - I'd imagine a motorcycle is similar to a bicycle:
2.1 - a smooth brick
0.9 - a typical bicycle plus cyclist
0.57 - Hummer H2, 2003
0.30 - Porsche 996, 1997

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by Ultra_Kool_Dude

Lack of weight.

exactly,
the frontal area of a bike is smaller for sure, but that´ll be just enough to make up for the high drag coefficient...

[Blythy]

fastest road legal time - 6:55

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