Fort Hood base shooting

[LurkerPatrol]

Originally Posted by jeffy777

My brother and his family are stationed there at Fort Hood. Thankfully they are all OK. A very sad day indeed

I'm glad to hear they are alright.




If he was frustrated or stressed or something couldn't he have just gone for a long run? Played some video games? Why kill innocent people? There's just a dearth of facts and connections between his emotions and his actions.

[Backdraft]

Given it's track record, I think you should take what the general media is reporting, at least this soon after the incident, with a healthy dose of salt. I highly doubt the shooter was some kind of "Manchurian Candidate" sleeper agent, otherwise our national security is in some deep shit.

Btw, PTSD is a very real and serious psychological syndrome, and its effects can't be ignored in this case. It could be he got stressed from hearing all those personal stories from soldiers and his impending (first time IIRC) deployment.

We'll find out soon enough.

[brydiem]

Great. My local news station over here (a subsidiary of channel 9) is trying to pedal the story that he was bullied for his faith and discriminated against by being refused promotion from psychiatry/counselling (forget what they called it) and being "forced" to be deployed. Unbiased news reporting my ass.

This really sucks though, I do hope that this guy is just a one-off deluded asshole and that he is brought to justice with minimal fuss.

[gtrietsc]

I heard the "he was bullied after 9/11" blurb on NPR this morning. Bunch of hogwash.

It will be some time before we know the full truth.

[jedd_kenobi]

My thoughts are with the families and friends of those killed. I'm holding back on determining any kind of judgment until more info comes out. Problem with things like this and rolling news is that they start speculating and any small thing is disected and torn apart until any kind of picture comes together.
Anyway, you yanks are made of stronger stuff than some attempts of an madman or anyone that thinks the gun is the way to solve their problems. either way, its not been a good week for you yanks or us brits either. We're all having a bad week when it comes to our armies.

[jeffy777]

Originally Posted by ninjacoco

Glad to hear your family's okay

Originally Posted by LurkerPatrol

I'm glad to hear they are alright.

Thank you

[Dogbert]

Originally Posted by Spectre

This is the same guy that has stated that all terrorism should be handled as a 'law enforcement issue', so chances are pretty good that he'll direct that this be handled as such.

I feel sorry for anyone that takes you for your word on that pseudo-trolling.

"Chances are pretty good"? Really? Can you present any sort of precedence or evidence in favor of this "good chance" besides "HE DOES THINGS I DON'T LIKE"?


Also, shooting sprees aren't Al-Qaeda's MO; I'd surmise we would have seen him with a ton of explosives strapped to his chest, if that were the case.

[Spectre]

Originally Posted by Dogbert

I feel sorry for anyone that takes you for your word on that pseudo-trolling.

"Chances are pretty good"? Really? Can you present any sort of precedence or evidence in favor of this "good chance" besides "HE DOES THINGS I DON'T LIKE"?

Oh, don't throw me into that briar patch, Br'er Fox!!

How about Obama's policy of returning captured terrorists to their home countries for their home authorities to deal with them? "It's a law enforcement matter!"

http://blog.cagle.com/2009/09/04/sco...ng-terrorists/

"On July 11, 2009, the Obama administration released five members of Iran’s Quds Force. These five were involved in supplying and fighting alongside Iraqi Shiite terror organizations. The five men have been in prison in Irbil, Iraq for the past two years. Iran welcomed the men home as heroes — the celebration included hearty rounds of chanting “Death to America!”"

Also, shooting sprees aren't Al-Qaeda's MO; I'd surmise we would have seen him with a ton of explosives strapped to his chest, if that were the case.

al-Qaeda has adopted all sorts of tactics, not just suicide bombing. They have adopted hit-and-run shooting sprees, kidnapping, assassination, lots of other fun tactics. I'm guessing you somehow missed aQ's associates' latest fun in India, the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mumbai_attacks - which included shooting sprees at the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus, the Leopold Cafe, and many other locations. The bombings appeared to be a secondary attack in that incident.

I notice you didn't comment about your buddy Obama's ME ME ME ME ME priorities. Why would that be?

And on what part did I lie? I clearly stated facts and opinions.

[Dogbert]

Originally Posted by Spectre

How about Obama's policy of returning captured terrorists to their home countries for their home authorities to deal with them? "It's a law enforcement matter!"

Okay, and Nidal Malik Hasan's home country is....

... wait for it ...



So you're saying that if he turns out to be a terrorist, we'll turn him over to... us? Or are we considering Arlington, VA a separate country now? I fail to see how a policy of extraditing captured terrorists to their home countries applies to a potential domestic terrorism case.

Originally Posted by Spectre

I'm guessing you somehow missed aQ's associates' latest fun in India, the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mumbai_attacks - which included shooting sprees at the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus, the Leopold Cafe, and many other locations. The bombings appeared to be a secondary attack in that incident.

Oh no, I remember it. I just didn't think to bring it up because, y'know, they're not Al-Qaeda. Associates with != Is. I've associated with Seth Green before, but that doesn't mean right after this post is finished, I'm gonna go work on Robot Chicken.

And let's think about this from a terrorist's point of view; if I wanted to kill a room full of people MOST OF WHOM HAVE GUNS, I'm probably not going to bring a gun to that gun fight. I'm going to bring a big damn bomb and kill myself, like all my other jihadist friends do (er, did).

Originally Posted by Spectre

I notice you didn't comment about your buddy Obama's ME ME ME ME ME priorities. Why would that be?

Because that's not what we're talking about, nor is it relevant to any particular discussion? I don't know what you want me to say about it that everyone hasn't already said, and why you need me to say it.

Originally Posted by Spectre

And on what part did I lie? I clearly stated facts and opinions.

And on what part did I say you were lying? I just said you were trollbaiting with that "chances are pretty good" non sequitur.

[Spectre]

Update: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/cop-ki...ory?id=9019521

I'm not going to quote the article, because it has many inaccuracies about the capabilities of the guns involved (such as one of them being a 'cop-killer gun'), but basically they do answer my question of how did he fire more than 100 rounds at close range, wound so many people and yet not kill more or do more damage, especially since reports have it that nobody in the building was wearing armor.

Turns out the guy had an FN FiveSeveN 5.7x28 pistol and a Smith and Wesson .357 Magnum revolver. The .357 is a manstopper for certain, but it's slow to fire and even slower to reload. The FiveSeveN was intended for use against armored personnel and it is known to have issues with overpenetration and causing little damage against unarmored personnel. Plus the armor-piercing ammunition is not available for civilian sale in the US, rendering it one of the more expensive and useless .22 class pistols on the market. From reports, it sounds like he used the FiveSeveN for most of his shooting, for which we can all be thankful. If he'd had a more conventionally-chambered pistol (say in 9mm), there would have been a lot more dead people.

Sometimes you have to give thanks for incompetence.

Edit: Just spotted Dogbert's reply.

Originally Posted by Dogbert

Okay, and Nidal Malik Hasan's home country is....

... wait for it ...



So you're saying that if he turns out to be a terrorist, we'll turn him over to... us? Or are we considering Arlington, VA a separate country now? I fail to see how a policy of extraditing captured terrorists to their home countries applies to a potential domestic terrorism case.

I'm saying that this indicates a pattern of handing over terrorists to 'civilian law enforcement'. If it continues, instead of leaving Hasan in a military prison to rot until his UCMJ-mandated execution, the administration would hand over Hasan to the civil authorities.

I would be very happy to be proven wrong, but this administration does have a pattern of behavior that makes this their probable course of action.

Oh no, I remember it. I just didn't think to bring it up because, y'know, they're not Al-Qaeda. Associates with != Is. I've associated with Seth Green before, but that doesn't mean right after this post is finished, I'm gonna go work on Robot Chicken.

Got a point there, but my point still stands - Middle Eastern terror organizations don't 'just' do suicide bombings. Even the Palestinians, who seemed to have no end of idiots willing to blow themselves up for a while there, seem to have gotten away from that and gone more for the shooting rampage or shelling tactics instead.

And let's think about this from a terrorist's point of view; if I wanted to kill a room full of people MOST OF WHOM HAVE GUNS, I'm probably not going to bring a gun to that gun fight. I'm going to bring a big damn bomb and kill myself, like all my other jihadist friends do (er, did).

Yes, but from reports coming out of the sandbox, they've run out of most of the idiots willing to martyr themselves without making sure they send someone to Allah ahead of them. They've been resorting to kidnapping people, strapping bombs to them, and sending them out telling them to kill themselves or their families will die, for example. Most of the remaining ME terrorists aren't doing suicide bombings so much any more, having decided that the not-so-smart-bomb tended to waste manpower they're starting to get a little low on. Now they're resorting to civilian mass shootings and remote bombs instead.

Oh, and by the way? Nobody in that room had a gun. The closest person with a gun other than Hasan was the Fort Hood cop outside. Why? Regulations and Federal laws. Soldiers aren't even allowed to keep their privately owned arms in quarters on base, per what I was told today.

Massacring unarmed people in a building via shooting spree is very much al-Queda's style (along with most other ME terrorist outfits').


Edit 2: TXCN just reported that 'sources' indicate that he only used one of the two guns he had with him, the FiveSeveN.

[Dogbert]

Originally Posted by Spectre

I'm saying that this indicates a pattern of handing over foreign, non-military terrorists to 'civilian law enforcement'.

I would be very happy to be proven wrong, but this administration does have a pattern of behavior that makes this their probable course of action.

I went ahead and fixed that for you.

I think there's a fundamental difference in how we see that policy. All you see is "terrorists tried by civilian law enforcement", when in reality, it's "foreign terrorists tried in their home country by civilian law enforcement".

Originally Posted by Spectre

Got a point there, but my point still stands - Middle Eastern terror organizations don't 'just' do suicide bombings. Even the Palestinians, who seemed to have no end of idiots willing to blow themselves up for a while there, seem to have gotten away from that and gone more for the shooting rampage or shelling tactics instead.

I suppose; it's hard to realize that when I still hear about people blowing themselves up every goddamn day. I'm just saying an Al-Qaeda link would be a little more plausible if he had plopped himself in the middle of that graduation and blown himself up, even if it's still a bit of a fallacy.

Massacring unarmed people in a building via shooting spree is Al-Qaeda style, sure... but they also don't really do "uncoordinated", and I think we can agree that this was fairly uncoordinated, judging by the timing and the weapons used.

Originally Posted by Spectre

Oh, and by the way? Nobody in that room had a gun. The closest person with a gun other than Hasan was the Fort Hood cop outside. Why? Regulations and Federal laws. Soldiers aren't even allowed to keep their privately owned arms in quarters on base, per what I was told today.

That strikes me as odd, and contrary to what I've been told before, which is that even desk jockeys have to carry their GI sidearm on them at all times.

[Spectre]

Originally Posted by Dogbert

I went ahead and fixed that for you.

I think there's a fundamental difference in how we see that policy. All you see is "terrorists tried by civilian law enforcement", when in reality, it's "foreign terrorists tried in their home country by civilian law enforcement".

Well, we'll see who's right.

Either way, even if this administration does turn the guy over to Texas law enforcement, he's not going to be liking it much.

I suppose; it's hard to realize that when I still hear about people blowing themselves up every goddamn day. I'm just saying an Al-Qaeda link would be a little more plausible if he had plopped himself in the middle of that graduation and blown himself up, even if it's still a bit of a fallacy.

Massacring unarmed people in a building via shooting spree is Al-Qaeda style, sure... but they also don't really do "uncoordinated", and I think we can agree that this was fairly uncoordinated, judging by the timing and the weapons used.

I don't know about that - remember, the 1993 WTC bombing carried out by aQ was pretty uncoordinated, to the point where they got caught because one of them wanted the rental deposit on the bomb truck back.

That strikes me as odd, and contrary to what I've been told before, which is that even desk jockeys have to carry their GI sidearm on them at all times.

Nope, that policy changed a long time ago, at least for domestic installations. Many troops aren't even issued sidearms at all any more; and as for carrying on base, only in the super-secure areas is that even considered. And of course, the Military Police.

We have some active and recently retired military here - one of you want to chime in on current carry policies at your bases/posts?

[Dogbert]

Originally Posted by Spectre

I don't know about that - remember, the 1993 WTC bombing carried out by aQ was pretty uncoordinated

That was also one of the first Al-Qaeda attacks ever, pre-bin Laden, and over 15 years ago. You can't deny they've unfortunately gotten much more refined since then.

Originally Posted by Spectre

Nope, that policy changed a long time ago, at least for domestic installations. Many troops aren't even issued sidearms at all any more; and as for carrying on base, only in the super-secure areas is that even considered. And of course, the Military Police.

Huh. Well then, I stand corrected on that.

I'm curious, now, as to where the MP's were when this happened.

[Spectre]

Originally Posted by Dogbert

That was also one of the first Al-Qaeda attacks ever, pre-bin Laden, and over 15 years ago. You can't deny they've unfortunately gotten much more refined since then.

True, but every so often they'll goof - or more often use a less-than-competent proxy. (Reference: how aQ-in-Iraq annoyed the Sunnis to the point where the instead of helping them Sunnis started hunting them themselves and/or turning them over to the Americans or Iraqi forces as an example of goofing.)

Huh. Well then.

I'm curious, now, as to where the MP's were when this happened.

Fort Hood is an enormous installation, some 340 square miles. It's the largest military base in the world, and even there the cops can't be everywhere.

As the phrase goes, 'When seconds count, the police are only minutes away!'

[Cowboy]

His first name is 'Hasan'?.....
Well that should give you a clue about what motivated him.....

[shad_68]

Originally Posted by gtrietsc

I heard the "he was bullied after 9/11" blurb on NPR this morning. Bunch of hogwash.

Yeah, because there totally was no increase in discrimination and prejudice against people of muslim origin in the US after 9/11.
On a completely unrelated note, he's a muslim, so he must've been an al-Qaida agent!

[spicysaurus]

Spectre, normally I like you just fine, but you're coming off as a racist asshole here. This guy was an American douchebag, and what happens to him is not in any way connected to the way Obama has handled the current war or threats of terrorism by foreigners on American soil. If he were a white man named Ralph you wouldn't be spewing this nonsense.

This is not the first time an American asshole has killed other Americans for no reason. It's not some politically-motivated act of terrorism. It's just the sickness that keeps breeding here.

[cvrefugee]

Originally Posted by spicysaurus

If he were a white man named Ralph you wouldn't be spewing this nonsense.

I'm pretty sure Spectre is Asian and has talked about being discriminated against before, so I don't think race is a factor here.

[spicysaurus]

^Because obviously only white people can be racist.

Anyway, I'm not saying he IS racist, just that he's coming across that way.

[BlaRo]

The second I saw that the guy was named "Hasan" and "was of Jordanian descent," I knew that this shitstorm would blow up to epic proportions and that all the paranoia would creep out of the woodwork.