Health Care in Europe

[OldSkoolGP]

I'm looking for a lot of replies form my European counterparts on this one. I saw Michael Moore's new documentary the other day, SiCKO. It debuted in Cannes and I think it's been in Europe since late May. I loved it, especially how it focused on how well universal health care works in Great Britain and France. He spent a good amount of time in Britain and with a former member of Parliment, and it seems like the National Health Service (NHS) is pretty unbeatable. I don't know what the system is called in France but again, the best health care system in the world.

However, Michael Moore does take a lot of slack over here as being a guy who portrays things with half truths and one sided arguments. I have seen occasional evidence of this behavior. However, I think in his talks about European health care he hit the proverbial nail on the head. But I'd like to hear this confirmed by some people who live under the system every day. What are the pros and cons, if any? What percentage of your income is collected for it? I assume the amount taken is based on how much you earn and everyone does not pay the same. I really am curios on this one so anyone with any insight, please comment.

[nomix]

Well. It's an interesting question. I just watched the movie myself, and I think it's better than most Moore-films. Moore does things his own way, it'll be stupid not to have that in mind when watching his movies. He serves half truths, he angles stuff to his point of view, but in the end, his mission, to make debate, earns a lot from that.

Now.

There is no such thing as the European health care system, but there is a general thing regarding it. It's generally universal. There are differences, but in the end, you're sick, they take care of you.

Usually. The problem is, that in many situations, you get long waiting lists. I think Tom Clancy (yes, Tom Clancy) summed it up quite well in a book of his, where Jack Ryan's wife argued that the operation a man had to wait several weeks for in the UK, could be done the next day on John Hopkins. Which was met by the question, 'how much would you charge for that?'.

Sums it up quite well. Yes, in some cases, you'll have to wait, it seems to be common in most official health care systems, but waiting is better than not getting any treathment at all. I mean, what's worse, having to wait, or not being able to afford it anyway?

Some friends of a teacher of mine once went to the US, and they had a car accident. The first thing the people from the ambulance asked them, do you have health insurance? They did, so that didn't pose a problem. But why should that be an issue?

I am biased, since I like the idea of a society taking care of those who live in that society, not ruining them for falling of a ladder, but I really think that's the biggest fault of the American society. If you can't guarantee health care for -every single citizen- in the richest country in the world, I think that's fundamenticly wrong.

Then again, I'm clearly biased.

The 'European systems' are not perfect, but they work. If you need help, you get it.

[American TG Man]

Originally Posted by nomix

I am biased, since I like the idea of a society taking care of those who live in that society, not ruining them for falling of a ladder, but I really think that's the biggest fault of the American society. If you can't guarantee health care for -every single citizen- in the richest country in the world, I think that's fundamenticly wrong.

It's actually part of a list of things wrong with the United States. Things like health care, education, the practice of law, our embarrassingly slack driver education, I could go on. Oh, yeah. Another one; how the majority of Americans won't get off their fat, lazy butts and actually try to change it. Okay, enough ranting...

[TomCat]

I've heard some stories from a friend of mine who lived in a few different countries in Europe and had to deal with the health care first hand. Lets just say, he isn't a fan... to say the least.

I do find it funny that people think it's free though. In America you pay for your health care, in Europe you pay higher taxes so the Government can pay for your health care. I think I like being able to choose.

That, and I'm not entirely sure I like the idea of having surgery performed on my by an under-paid, over-worked, surgeon who's probably protected against malpractice suits.

[Hidden_Hunter]

Originally Posted by TomCat

That, and I'm not entirely sure I like the idea of having surgery performed on my by an under-paid, over-worked, surgeon who's probably protected against malpractice suits.

what makes you think that they're nesscerily any of those?

[jetsetter]

The mentality of the average US citizen is not conductive to a universal health care system.

Now before anyone responds to my statement take into consideration the history of the United States. It is in history that you will find your answers.

[TomCat]

Originally Posted by Hidden_Hunter

what makes you think that they're nesscerily any of those?

I don't know. I guess I would think of them as the medical version of a court appointed attorney. You can do a lot better in the private sector.

[Adunaphel]

Originally Posted by TomCat

I do find it funny that people think it's free though. In America you pay for your health care, in Europe you pay higher taxes so the Government can pay for your health care. I think I like being able to choose.

Not entirely true. I'm no expert on the rest of Europe, but in The Netherlands there is something as compulsory health insurance. The basic compulsory package covers a range of common healthcare necessities such as visits to your GP, basic medicines, hospitalisation costs, etc. at a fixed maximum price set by the government. But there's a lot of things that are not insured. You can opt to get insurance for those things, or not and hope you'll never need them. Insurance companies cannot refuse to insure you for the basic package, they can however refuse additional packages or charge you extra for them based on your medical history.

[Spectre]

And, very specifically, in what many people have experienced in our currently-government run health care system, the VA Hospital system. That's Veterans' Administration, the healthcare system for our disabled and retired military - and everyone in the US knows just what a total nightmare the VA system was. It's gotten a lot better, but that's only very recently and it shows signs of going back to the bad old ways.

It's government run healthcare, and it's the reason why most Americans are against government-run healthcare in the US. It made the blundering, rationing incompetence that is the Brit NHS look like gods in comparison. The majority of people have experienced the VA's tender mercies in person, have/had a loved one that did, or knew someone who got screwed by the VA. My father is one of those people that discovered how bad the VA was in the 1970s...

British or Canadian-style government-run healthcare in the US? Not if I have *anything* to say about it.

[teletubby-warrior]

For those who haven't seen it:

+ Google Video

[CyberMonkey]

We in Belgium have an extensive government-regulated health care. It means we have to pay A LOT for our social security, but it also means that here it's almost a non-issue to get medical care which would cost you thousands of dollars in the USA. If you need a pacemaker or a new hip over here, it just happens, and you won't ruin yourself doing it. If you go to the doctor or the dentist, and ask for the price, the first thing he says after mentioning the price is "but you will get more than half of it back". I read stories from other countries where people actually die because they can't afford their treatment. Over here that's impossible.
I don't know exactly how the system works, I just know it works quite fine. However, like I said, it costs huge amounts of money (combined with minimum wages and pensions) and it pressures our economy since companies have to pay their employees much more than they actually receive, the rest go to taxes and social security.

[Cobol74]

If a US citizen was to need Hospital Treatment on holiday in the UK they would just get it - no charge. Bad things about our system - under funded and recently the bloody government keeps messing around trying to micro manage it; good thing if you go private generally you get the same Doctors. What you pay for is queue jumping, and nicer "hotel" facilities.

The whole thing is paid for out of general taxation, this is different to the rest of Europe where the Dutch model (Compulsory Insurance) is generally applicable.

[jakifirbec]

Originally Posted by Adunaphel

Not entirely true. I'm no expert on the rest of Europe, but in The Netherlands there is something as compulsory health insurance. The basic compulsory package covers a range of common healthcare necessities such as visits to your GP, basic medicines, hospitalisation costs, etc. at a fixed maximum price set by the government. But there's a lot of things that are not insured. You can opt to get insurance for those things, or not and hope you'll never need them. Insurance companies cannot refuse to insure you for the basic package, they can however refuse additional packages or charge you extra for them based on your medical history.

Same in our country. The optional package costs about 15 EUR/month.
For non employed there is also a health care option - all you need is confirmation from tax office that you don't have any income. That covers most of treatments and drugs.
Doctors and hospitals are both government and private, and your insurance covers both options.

[GM_IV]

Flaws in the Canadian system...wait times, high taxes on top of already high taxes, costs only go higher and higher. That said I have been satisfied with the results of the Canadian health care system since you are treated and do not have to worry about a bill coming back. I also find the doctors despite being paid rather poorly are more concerned with treating patients than their pay. I would certainly hate to bankrupt my family because of a bill coming from the hospital and after having two grandparents use the system both my father and mother's side would have been bankrupt under the US styled system.

[nomix]

Originally Posted by TomCat

That, and I'm not entirely sure I like the idea of having surgery performed on my by an under-paid, over-worked, surgeon who's probably protected against malpractice suits.

At the same time, you're flown around by men making as much as the cleaning lady at your work place. At least the first years of their education.

The fact of the matter is, even in a highly 'socialized' system like the Scandinavian one, a doc is payed, well, a lot. I cousin of mine's one, he makes something like 2 000 000 NOK a year, in a country where the average lies around 390 000 NOK a year.

So you're average doctor in our system isn't more viable to make mistakes than the average doctor in your sytem.

Originally Posted by TomCat

I don't know. I guess I would think of them as the medical version of a court appointed attorney. You can do a lot better in the private sector.

You might think so, it's not true. Even if there ARE waiting lists, you will get treathment if you need it. If it's needed at once, you'll get it in 9999 of 10000 cases. Which is better than NOT getting treathment at all, cause you can't afford it.

I once went to Cypres, and I talked to a man who had a medical condition, I don't know the English term, but it's a very easy condition to fix, and in Norway, it would be fixed very quickly.

This man couldn't afford to get this very painful, but very simple problem fixed.

[OldSkoolGP]

Wow, first off thanks to everyone that has replied thus far. The general feeling I'm getting is yes, it does cost a lot and yes, it has a noticeable economic effect, but hardly anyone can complain about the care and the coverage. Would it be going to far to call it a necessary evil?

Personally, I think that no matter what a society should work to help the best of us AND the rest of us. And while I think one day America could have universal health care, it could not happen today, not with the country as polarized as it is. Most everyone is on one side of the fence or the other, and few if any are willing to meet in the middle. I think it all comes back to what the member of Paraliment was saying in the film about freedom of choice. Europeans just have more choices than we do, and because of that I think they're happier, their governments are obviously more functional, and as a whole their societies are better off.

BTW, I currently have no mdeical insurance because my company is in the middle of a money saving campaign and they dropped all insurance coverage at my office because there are only 2 people working our territory. I guess they must think 2 people are less important than 200.

[IVIaster]

Originally Posted by TomCat

I do find it funny that people think it's free though. In America you pay for your health care, in Europe you pay higher taxes so the Government can pay for your health care. I think I like being able to choose.

Well, only the rich pay high taxes. If your poor you pay very little or even none, so to them its free.

The waiting time in the public hospitals is long, so my family always uses the privet ones. We pay the bill to the hospital but then sent the bill to welfare office who then return the money to us. I believe plastic surgery is the only one which isnt covered by the state.

Actually the doctors get alot of money, they do the morning shift on the public sector and in the evening they work for the private. Its the nurses who are underpayed.

[-Cpt. J.-]

Originally Posted by TomCat

I don't know. I guess I would think of them as the medical version of a court appointed attorney. You can do a lot better in the private sector.

And you're the one that gets mad when people post generalizations/assumptions about Americans. Funny indeed. Doctors get paid very very well in Finland atleast. I think it is one of the best paying jobs(?). In Top 5 for sure if you're a doctor who specializes in a certain area. Anyway they are far from underpayed and I think doctors work long days all over the world.

[jetsetter]

If your poor you pay very little or even none, so to them its free.

That is one of the problems people have with it.

[-Cpt. J.-]

Personally I only have problems with the people that abuse the health care system.
If you got a job and pay taxes, studfent or whatever it's OK. The only people I despise are the ones that are unemplyoed AND are comfortable living like a bum and laugh at decent people that have jobs or are unemployed and want a job.

You can be a good person and be unemployed or poor. But if you don't have any plans to change your life and just live off the bottle or live like a gypsy stealing, you are shit to me.