5 freedoms you'd lose in health care reform

[Plissken]

Originally Posted by jetsetter

Of course there is. It is my right not to have to pay for health coverage for other people.

What about if you need those other people to pay for your coverage? You've already said that private organisations, Medicaid, charities etc should step in. Where does that money come from?

I forget, like Little Miss Self-Righteous you quoted, you're alright, Jack.

[katwalk]

How about this. I will clear up with everyone how this health care works, because I am already on it. Now because my father who was supposed to supply me with real insurance until I am out of college is a loser I had my real insurance that actually paid for things disappear about a year ago.

Since I live in Massachusetts, Health insurance is mandatory, so if I didn't get insurance I would be FINED. A big whooping fine that costs more than the crap state insurance so obviously I have to go get it. Because I am in college and going to a school, I am not allowed the slightly less retarded insurance mom is on. I have to use the special school insurance.

Special school insurance often tries cancel itself so I had a big goddamn thing where it disappeared and I had to jump through hoops to get it back. It also does not do things like prescription coverage, even though it is mandatory for all insurances here to have that, and this is insurance provided from the state. I can only see doctors on the list of doctors they allow, but none of these doctors have heard of special insurance so I must call early so they can go figure out if I am making it up. Then when i am done seeing the stupid doctors that fix nothing in my health I go home and they send me the bill that the insurance is supposed to cover, but they send it to me instead because I have imaginary insurance no one has heard of and they can't figure out where they are supposed to send it to even after I call them.

So I am charged money for insurance that limits the doctors I can go to and then wants me to pay for everything anyway, and I can't change to any other cheap insurance because I am going to a state college.

[nomix]

Originally Posted by LeVeL

I am by no means "rich" and yet I am currently able to choose my own doctor. Hell, I just switched last year!
I'm not sure why health insurance should be mandatory in the first place. If you want to but into it, then by all means go right ahead. If you don't get sick very often (maybe that's a bad example lol) and think you can get by without insurance, then you shouldn't be forced to get it.

Then I suppose the problem is that the bill won't let people choose doctors. I live in Norway. We pay a lot of tax, but have a health care system free at the point of use.

And I can pick my doctor.

I think the least of problems is that some people get forced to get health insurance. When there is now 50 million people without coverage, do you really think that's the biggest potential problem?

[Ladamaha]

^ That sounds like communism Katwalk. But Obama should bring you that?! Something isn't right...



Oh yes, Obama is after social democracy not communism. If Obama is a commie being slightly on the left, I wonder what sort of Stalinists it makes the heads of Scandinavian countries.

More to the point, the health of your nation will be a big problem for your whole country if it's not already. If 50 million people don't have access to proper health care, imagine the problems in the future. Stop with this prejudice Obama is the nigger commie bullshit.

[katwalk]

I'm sure it sounded good in theory but I am being royally fucked. This is however, my state ATM not the country and it started BEFORE obama took office so it's mass government stupidity.

[Symbotic]

Originally Posted by Ladamaha

^ That sounds like communism Katwalk. But Obama should bring you that?! Something isn't right...



Oh yes, Obama is after social democracy not communism. If Obama is a commie being slightly on the left, I wonder what sort of Stalinists it makes the heads of Scandinavian countries.

More to the point, the health of your nation will be a big problem for your whole country if it's not already. If 50 million people don't have access to proper health care, imagine the problems in the future. Stop with this prejudice Obama is the nigger commie bullshit.

So if we don't like Obama's ass backward heath care plan we're racist? Why don't you stop the "if we don't agree with everything he says we're racist" bullshit.

[jetsetter]

Please stop throwing around this "50 million" number.

[Ladamaha]

Originally Posted by Symbotic

So if we don't like Obama's ass backward heath care plan we're racist? Why don't you stop the "if we don't agree with everything he says we're racist" bullshit.

No, you are just idiots jumping on the communist card every time the words social is taken up.

Why it should be bad to provide basic health care for everyone? Isn't your country based on the idea that all people are equal, a thought which has been neglected trough your history?

Here, in the communistic european country I live, health care is part of social security. Everyone pays and everyone has the right to get ill or seriously injured, which most of the time you have no control over.

[jetsetter]

Isn't your country based on the idea that all people are equal, a thought which has been neglected trough your history?

We are not a "democracy" but a republic founded on the ideal of individual rights. We are equal in that the government won't meddle too much in our lives. The founding fathers worried and disliked the "masses" and insured that individual rights would not be trampled upon by those masses.

Democracy is the most vile form of government... democracies have ever
been spectacles of turbulence and contention: have ever been found
incompatible with personal security or the rights of property:
and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent
in their deaths.
- James Madison

[RUU-CHAMA]

Shouldn't the government try to figure out how to get us out of the deficit, the social security debt, the Medicare and Medicaid debt before they try to incur more debt with this plan. Also, why would taxes be imposed on those making over $250,000 a year? Why not put it at 5% under what congress makes, after all, were all in this together, aren't we?


edit: wouldn't matter, government most like doesn't pay any taxes anyway.

[Plissken]

So, Jetsetter, democracy is a bad thing, right?

Today I'm going to speak in depth about another vital element of our strategy: our efforts to help the Iraqi people build a lasting democracy in the heart of the Middle East. I can think of no better place to discuss the rise of a free Iraq than in the heart of Philadelphia, the city where America's democracy was born.

George W Bush, The Struggle for Democracy in Iraq:Speech to the World Affairs Council of Philadelphia, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, December 12, 2005

There are five steps in our plan to help Iraq achieve democracy and freedom

The George W Bush FOreign Policy Reader, Google

[Plissken]

Oooh... found a good one

[by the middle of January 2009, it will be clear that] "we have in fact achieved our objective in terms of having a self-governing Iraq that’s capable for the most part of defending themselves, a democracy in the heart of the Middle East, a nation that will be a positive force in influencing the world around it in the future.”

Well, I didn't think I'd be capable of agreeing with Dick Cheney but he seems to think democracy is a good idea.

[WillDAQ]

Originally Posted by katwalk

Since I live in Massachusetts, Health insurance is mandatory, so if I didn't get insurance I would be FINED. A big whooping fine that costs more than the crap state insurance so obviously I have to go get it.

The more you hear about the US system, the more utterly retarded it sounds.

[Ladamaha]

Now I got to say I'm terribly sorry, because I didn't read the first post earlier and just assumed things. Terribly sorry, I was in a hurry to polish my Jaaaaaag..oh cock, I don't have one, well was worth a try. :/

Yes, sorry. The system does really sound fucked up. It's just wrong compared what it's here, a system that actually somewhat works and provides basic care.

That's just looks like them forcing you on a insurance policy. How are people who don't have any money to pay insurance now, be able to afford to pay? I don't get it.

Originally Posted by jetsetter

We are not a "democracy" but a republic founded on the ideal of individual rights. We are equal in that the government won't meddle too much in our lives. The founding fathers worried and disliked the "masses" and insured that individual rights would not be trampled upon by those masses.

I know this is conflicting on what I said earlier, but that's the slimy double faced evil bastard I am, but are those ideas up to date? Are they really what you should still keep living with, and do you?

I know you are the land of opportunity and freedom. But would it be the time to start caring about other and not just the individual. Your current system enforces the gap between the poor and wealthy. The rich get richer and poor poorer. Would it be wise to start caring before it leads to trouble?

The proposed system isn't probably the best, it's just doesn't fit with what I'd call a national health care. But at least they've opened up the discussion and debate?

[jebjeb]

I work in the medical field and believe me alot of doctors are scared about this as well. Some of the things they are talking about cutting out are stuff like to confirm you have what they think you have. Obam care thinks you should just treat what you think before you confirm thats what the issue is.

Another reason they dont want public health care
A 99213(routine sick visit) a public company pays $100 ish Medicaid(state ins) pays $25
in edition to that they are having to pay their employees more,cost of supplies is up,rent is up, malpractice is way up.

An example of the malpractice issues
One of the doctors I work for was the on call ER doctor. Someone came in and was really sick so he admitted him. 2 weeks later he ends up dieing, well the family of the guy decided to sue everyone who's name is on the chart. Even though my doctor hasn't seen the patient for 2 weeks and had nothing to do with the treatment he gets named in a lawsuit. So now his rates are going up do to having a claim against him.

[Plissken]

Originally Posted by jebjeb

I work in the medical field and believe me alot of doctors are scared about this as well. Some of the things they are talking about cutting out are stuff like to confirm you have what they think you have. Obam care thinks you should just treat what you think before you confirm thats what the issue is.

Yeah, well you get paid by the visit, anything that cuts down unnecessary visits is a Good Thing. Get it right first time.

Another reason they dont want public health care
A 99213(routine sick visit) a public company pays $100 ish Medicaid(state ins) pays $25 in edition to that they are having to pay their employees more,cost of supplies is up,rent is up, malpractice is way up.

Then if they sort it out properly, the company pays a set amount no matter what, as part of its NI obligations. Why should the company that you work for have a say in how much it pays for the good health of its employees. I thought it was doctors who are supposed to be making the choice? And not, as it is now, insurance companies with an eye on the bottom line.

An example of the malpractice issues
One of the doctors I work for was the on call ER doctor. Someone came in and was really sick so he admitted him. 2 weeks later he ends up dieing, well the family of the guy decided to sue everyone who's name is on the chart. Even though my doctor hasn't seen the patient for 2 weeks and had nothing to do with the treatment he gets named in a lawsuit. So now his rates are going up do to having a claim against him.

Obamas health plan has nothing to do with that. That is just [oh-ho ambulance chasing lawyers. So don't conflate the two.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

USA! USA! USA! ZOMG COMMUNISM!

[LeVeL]

Originally Posted by Ladamaha

No, you are just idiots jumping on the communist card every time the words social is taken up.

Why it should be bad to provide basic health care for everyone? Isn't your country based on the idea that all people are equal, a thought which has been neglected trough your history?

Here, in the communistic european country I live, health care is part of social security. Everyone pays and everyone has the right to get ill or seriously injured, which most of the time you have no control over.

Basic health care should, perhaps, be extended to everyone. I can certainly see why that would be desireable. However, I very much dislike the way the current administration is going about achieving this goal.

As for what I said earlier about insurance being mandatory or not, I thought about it some more and decided this: if a poor citizen who cannot afford a certain medical procedure is taken to a hospital and has no insurance and no money, we can't possibly throw him out into the street and let him die. However, in the same vain as him being upable to pay out of his own pocket, making him pay for insurance (which he might not even end up using) is also a bit backward and illogical. I think that employers should have to provide medical cost coverage for their employees.

[katwalk]

Originally Posted by Ladamaha

Now I got to say I'm terribly sorry, because I didn't read the first post earlier and just assumed things. Terribly sorry, I was in a hurry to polish my Jaaaaaag..oh cock, I don't have one, well was worth a try. :/

Yes, sorry. The system does really sound fucked up. It's just wrong compared what it's here, a system that actually somewhat works and provides basic care.

That's just looks like them forcing you on a insurance policy. How are people who don't have any money to pay insurance now, be able to afford to pay? I don't get it.

They get fined money they can't pay or try and trick the system. It would be one thing if it was a crappy FREE insurance plan but this is just discounted and you still have to pay. Because of how much of a mess it is just to get a regular doctor appointment over with I don't even go more than the annual check up unless I am totally bed ridden. Just not worth it. Emergency room care here is so bad it doesn't matter if you have insurance because you'll be waiting there for hours even if you can barely breath. I've waited there doubled over in pain and ended up giving up and going home because it had been 2-3 hours and there were dozens of people ahead of me still. I at this point am bitter and jaded to all things medical because I have never had a helpful doctor.

[jebjeb]

Originally Posted by Plissken

Obamas health plan has nothing to do with that. That is just [oh-ho ambulance chasing lawyers. So don't conflate the two.

Just talking about raising cost for the doctors who will now make much less due to this plan.