Anti-Americanism Examined on BBC radio

[jetsetter]

Anti-Americanism Examined: Washington correspondent Justin Webb looks at the perceived global hatred of the US. 1/3. He examines the origins of anti-Americanism in Europe.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/deathtoamerica/

In the Abbey Churchyard in the lovely English city of Bath, groups of demonstrators, many - though not all - of them Quakers, regularly gather to protest against the iniquities of the world.

My dear mother Gloria Webb, who died last year, was one of the protesters. In her day, she was an energetic duffle-coated figure who wanted to ban the bomb, stop wars of all kinds and suffering anywhere.

She was a wonderful person, my mum, and so were her friends. Yet it always struck me, when she told me about these protests (and when, I freely confess, I attended them with enthusiasm as a youngster) that there was an odd one-sidedness to the game.

The protests against nuclear weapons, for instance, concentrated on American weapons. The anti-war rallies were against American-led wars. The anti death penalty campaign focused on Texas.

A pattern was emerging and has never seriously been altered. A pattern of willingness to condemn America for the tiniest indiscretion - or to magnify those indiscretions - while leaving the murderers, dictators, and thieves who run other nations oddly untouched.

In the beginning

And if anti-Americanism is alive and well among surprisingly mild-mannered people in Britain - how much more virulent must it be in tougher parts of the world?

To find out, I have visited Venezuela, where the nation's leader Hugo Chavez compares George W Bush to Hitler, and Egypt, where the regime warns of a tide of stars and stripes burning if its hold on power is weakened.

And Paris. Paris? Yes Paris - where it all began.

Anti-Americanism was born in France. And here's a fascinating fact: it was born well before the United States existed. It was not caused by Coca-Cola, or McDonald's, or Hollywood or George W Bush.

The prevailing view among French academics throughout the 18th Century was that the New World was ghastly. It stank, it was too humid for life to prosper. And, as one European biologist put it: "Everything found there is degenerate or monstrous."

In their heart of hearts, many French people still believe that to be true.

A French intellectual once compared the United States with Belgium. Wounding. But you see what he meant: the French capital has a grandeur about it that demands attention on the world stage. Belgium does not, nor does most of America.

Washington is grand but Washington was designed by a Frenchman and his vision didn't fit the rest of the nation. America is ordinary. Go on say it out loud on the streets of Paris: "America is ordinary". It celebrates the pursuit of small-scale happiness - in families and communities - and that is what the anti-Americans can't stand.

Dislike

In the heart of Paris, there is the Avenue Franklin Roosevelt. Roosevelt, the man who helped defeat Nazi Germany and liberate Parisian streets, is celebrated here. And the point many French people make is that they would celebrate George W Bush, too, if they agreed with him. The source of anti-Americanism is plain they say. As one interviewee told us: "It's the policies, Stupid."

Well up to a point: in Paris there is plenty of evidence to be found that anti-Americanism is way more than that, that it's not simply reasonable opposition to the things America does.

The kind of anti-Americanism fostered by French intellectuals down the centuries revolves around intense dislike of what America is - not what it does.

Sitting in the Cafe de Flore, in the very seat where Jean-Paul Sartre once held sway, the self-described writer and philosopher Bernard-Henri Levy puts it like this: America became the nightmare that French right-wing intellectuals long feared, a nation built not on respectable ties of blood and tradition but on the self-conscious desire to create something new.

Antagonism

Levy is sympathetic to the US, and a book he wrote on his travels there, American Vertigo, is a balanced and thoughtful piece of work.

But such balance is, according to Levy, missing in the French political debate on American power and American life. He describes a process whereby this antagonism to the fundamentals of the USA - to the kind of democracy that celebrates and encourages ordinariness - migrates hither and thither in the French body politic.

It began on the right but now in the shape of Jose Bove (the anti-McDonald's campaigner, and presidential candidate) and other luminaries of the left, it lives on.

And this is not a recent migration brought on by Mr Bush. In May 1944 (just weeks before American GIs landed on the beaches of Normandy), Hubert Beuve-Mery, the founder of Le Monde newspaper - certainly no mouthpiece of the right - wrote this: "The Americans represent a real danger for France, different from the one posed by Germany or the one with which the Russians may - in time - threaten us. The Americans may have preserved a cult of Liberty but they do not feel the need to liberate themselves from the servitude which their capitalism has created. "

It is time that we understood that this attitude, this contempt for what democracy can do, is at the heart of at least some of the anti-Americanism we see in the world today.

"Death to America": Anti-Americanism examined will be broadcast on Radio 4 over three weeks starting on 16 April at 2000 BST.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6547881.stm

[RUU-CHAMA]

Thats why America needs to go back to its isolationist policy and leave the rest of the world to screw up again.

[jetsetter]

Most Anti-Americanism is usually a result of ignorance on behalf of the ones preaching it.

[Firecat]

Anti-Americanism was born in France. And here's a fascinating fact: it was born well before the United States existed.

That's a pretty bold statement.

[watisdis]

He describes a process whereby this antagonism to the fundamentals of the USA - to the kind of democracy that celebrates and encourages ordinariness - migrates hither and thither in the French body politic.

Why this would ever be a problem I don't know. Personaly, I (and pretty much everyone I know) could care less if a Frenchman/woman likes or dislikes the "American" way of life. No country is perfect, but focusing so much hatred and rage against a single institution seems rather childlike and immature. Oh well, to each their own opinions...

[Momentum57]

The Americans may have preserved a cult of Liberty but they do not feel the need to liberate themselves from the servitude which their capitalism has created.

Oh its so hard living under this terrible capitalism. It's like the harder i work, the more money i keep getting.

[jetsetter]

Originally Posted by Momentum57

Oh its so hard living under this terrible capitalism. It's like the harder i work, the more money i keep getting.

I shed a tear for us all.

[epp_b]

Here's a thought: maybe some anti-Americanism occurs because there are some things not to like about America. Just a thought.

Oh its so hard living under this terrible capitalism. It's like the harder i work, the more money i keep getting.

That's funny, but I think you know what he meant: Americans have the best government corporate money can buy.

[jetsetter]

Here's a thought: maybe some anti-Americanism occurs because there are some things not to like about America. Just a thought.

I can understand some but at this point enough is enough. Yeah, I know we are number one but we are not the cause of all the world's problems.

[watisdis]

Originally Posted by epp_b

Here's a thought: maybe some anti-Americanism occurs because there are some things not to like about America. Just a thought.

I think you win the 'Mr. Obvious' award for this month...Of course America is not going to be all likeable, that goes for any country. What the article was trying to discuss was why there was an uneven weight placed on America's flaws as compared to other countries, world powers or not.

Originally Posted by epp_b

That's funny, but I think you know what he meant: Americans have the best government corporate money can buy.

Yes and let's not forget the oil scandals of the EU, corrupt South American governments, warlord dictatorships in Africa, and communist regimes in East Asia. I think you just proved the point the article was trying to make. But like you said, just a thought...

[tigger]

Originally Posted by jetsetter

I can understand some but at this point enough is enough. Yeah, I know we are number one but we are not the cause of all the world's problems.

But it is certainly easy for us to be blamed for them. Throughout the 20th century we stepped up from a throughly isolationist nation to the frickin world police. We did it to secure trade and to try to stabilize international affairs. But just like the British before us, we've been feeling a backlash. Should we care? I don't know. I do know that if we returned to an isolationist country that it would be the Great Depression all over again.

Originally Posted by epp_b

That's funny, but I think you know what he meant: Americans have the best government corporate money can buy.

You're right. The US is the only country that has government corruption and lobbyists . By the "servitude of capitalism" I believe he means that hard work is necessary to build and retain capital here. You also must take it in the context of when it was written, 1944. We where just coming out of a terrible depression, and the government was just beginning to provide welfare, social security, etc etc.

No, capitalism is definitely not perfect, but given the choices it is the system I would prefer to live under.

[nomix]

Originally Posted by jetsetter

Most Anti-Americanism is usually a result of ignorance on behalf of the ones preaching it.

Well, I guess one could compare surtain types of anti-americanism to racism. Not that Americans are one race, not at all, but it's basicly the same principle, "all Pakistanis are idiots", "all Americans are fat, stupid and ignorant". Same thing, different packing.

But it's still a poor way of saying it. Cause there must be drawn a line, between those who dislikes all Americans because they think all Americans act like one, and those who dislike American politics, American sosial conditions and so on. Let's compare it to critic of Israel. Critic of Israel is not anti-semitism, as I am quite surtain you all know, if you are a critic of jews as a whole, you are an anti-semite.

I have nothing in particular against Americans, in the same way I have nothing in particular against any nationality, I perfer to judge people by their behavior.

I do, however, dislike quite a lot of American foreign and domestic politics. I disagree that Israel should be free to act as they wish, I don't think shooting everything to bits is the way to go in any situation, I think that western countries should behave in the manner they argue poor countries are to behave. Domestic. I think everyone should be provided with support if they can't work, that everyone should have health care, everyone, I think the death penalty is barbaric, I dislike the current administration because of their entire lack of respect for the international society, human rights and their dependance on corporate interest.

I also dislike your election system, where a man with more votes can lose, that is a part of our system too, and I strongly disagree with that. I also don't like the fact that the US is de facto a two party state.

And I could go on, and on, and on and on. Should I get started with Russia now? Or Iran? Or Syria? I dislike all these regimes. So lets get on with it.

Originally Posted by Momentum57

Oh its so hard living under this terrible capitalism. It's like the harder i work, the more money i keep getting.

Problem is, that the laizez faire market liberalism that is advocated by surtain members of the current administration, is harmful for the society, for the enviroment, and for most others than the owners of some very few, very big corporations.

Originally Posted by tigger

You're right. The US is the only country that has government corruption and lobbyists . By the "servitude of capitalism" I believe he means that hard work is necessary to build and retain capital here. You also must take it in the context of when it was written, 1944. We where just coming out of a terrible depression, and the government was just beginning to provide welfare, social security, etc etc.

No, it most surtainly is not. But then let's call a spade a spade, and nothing else.

No, capitalism is definitely not perfect, but given the choices it is the system I would prefer to live under.

I like capitalism. It works. Pure socialism, communism, marxists-leninism, neither of them does work.

But I personally prefer a combination. Sort of a combination of plan ecconomy and market ecconomy. Really don't know what it might be called in English, but you get the point. We use it over here. You get sick, you get threatment. You get laid off, you get welfare, you get enough to survive, it's not much, but you won't need to live on the street. It's a good system.

Capitalism is a fluid term. You could be talking about the system I prefer, the above, you could be talking about pure, hard core, hardline laizez faire market liberalism. I don't like the latter, so I guess people tend to disagree.

My 2 cents.

[zenkidori]

Originally Posted by nomix

You get sick, you get threatment. You get laid off, you get welfare, you get enough to survive, it's not much, but you won't need to live on the street. It's a good system.

we have that as well.

[D-Fence]

Seeing the way zenkidorki, jetsetter, Momentum57, Blind_Io and cvg behave in this forum is reason enough to explain anti-Americanism.

[nomix]

And why are there still many Americans that end up with medical bills as large as the gross income of a Norwegian citizen, which I might add, is quite a lot more than the average income of Americans?

[jetsetter]

Originally Posted by nomix

And why are there still many Americans that end up with medical bills as large as the gross income of a Norwegian citizen, which I might add, is quite a lot more than the average income of Americans?

We don't want to pay taxes.

But lets get back anti-Americanism. Why do people protest the United States but do not protest terrorists? During the 70s and 80s people would protest US nuclear weapons but not Soviet nuclear weapons. They would protest the Vietnam war but not the Soviet war in Afghanistan.

[tigger]

Originally Posted by nomix

And why are there still many Americans that end up with medical bills as large as the gross income of a Norwegian citizen, which I might add, is quite a lot more than the average income of Americans?

I'd agree that the US does need to explore some real socialized health care. If you are very poor, you are eligible for assistance, but there are people, a lot of people, who can't afford health insurance but make too much to get gov't assistance. We may get stuck with HMO style care, but that's better than nothing. I don't have health insurance. I can't get it through my parents because I took a year off school. And with paying for my gas, tuition, rent and other bills, on part-time job pay I don't have $150+ a month left over for insurance. Which is a shame considering all the stupid crap I do lol.

Originally Posted by nomix

No, it most certainly is not. But then let's call a spade a spade, and nothing else.

Lol, i'm not one to shy away from calling this administration and the previous republican congress corrupt. Shit, billions went into no-bid army contracts for Cheney's old pals at Halliburton and it's subsidiaries. The price of gas miraculously falls by almost %50 come each election time. Bush was trying his damnedest to get more areas opened for oil drilling and logging. I won't even start on foreign policy and Iraq. I hate the way my country has been run the last 7 years.

Originally Posted by D-Fence

Seeing the way zenkidorki, jetsetter, Momentum57, Blind_Io and cvg behave in this forum is reason enough to explain anti-Americanism.

That's a pretty weak argument...

[zenkidori]

Originally Posted by nomix

And why are there still many Americans that end up with medical bills as large as the gross income of a Norwegian citizen, which I might add, is quite a lot more than the average income of Americans?

indeed our system could be a LOT better, and I would love a more socialized healthcare system, but the way you phrased your post sounded like you were alleging that if you don't have money you are shit out of luck and have to live on the streets, and are denied medical care, which is not the case at all.

I'd agree that the US does need to explore some real socialized health care. If you are very poor, you are eligible for assistance, but there are people, a lot of people, who can't afford health insurance but make too much to get gov't assistance. We may get stuck with HMO style care, but that's better than nothing. I don't have health insurance. I can't get it through my parents because I took a year off school. And with paying for my gas, tuition, rent and other bills, on part-time job pay I don't have $150+ a month left over for insurance. Which is a shame considering all the stupid crap I do lol.

I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, however once my second job gives me full time hours I'll be able to afford some health insurance no problem. I could have insurance at my current full time job but I keep missing the open enrollment deadline(you get to sign up every 6 months, stupid).