Britain cooking the books on crime stats.

[SuperStalin]

Guns are fine, it's people who suck, therefore, people should have a tough time obtaining guns, at least to learn to respect the weapon and understand its power and effects.

[Blind_Io]

So all people are equal? Sorry no.

[zenkidori]

Where the fuck did my post go?!?!

Well here's my best at recreating it:

Originally Posted by nomix

But a lot cheaper. And it's easier to learn to drive with a Suzuki Cappuccino than in a Ferrari, I suppose.

Indeed, I was just trying to point out that there are reasons for people owning different types and caliber of firearms. I would actually recommend a 9mm for starting, as it's cheap to fire, easy on the recoil but not too easy like a .22. You'll have a harder time jumping from a .22 to something else.

Originally Posted by nomix

Yup. Best thing would be to lock it up, and in case someone should get into the cabinet, you keep crucial parts at another place. For instance at the gun club.

That would be my sollution.

Point is, I'd make sure that even IF someone were to break into my house and get into a locked cabinet, some people will be able, they would not be able to use my hand gun.

So a cabinet is where you'd keep it? No, you need a safe.

If all you do is shoot at a club's range, then by all means keep it there, but there are many safe options for keeping a gun or many guns at home such as safes, or what I do, don't keep any ammunition at home. When I want to go shoot I go buy ammo and then shoot it all. There is 0 chance of an accident happening without anything to accidentally fire.

safe gun ownership isn't difficult, it's just common sense.

[Peter3hg]

Originally Posted by zenkidori

Indeed, I was just trying to point out that there are reasons for people owning different types and caliber of firearms. I would actually recommend a 9mm for starting, as it's cheap to fire, easy on the recoil but not too easy like a .22. You'll have a harder time jumping from a .22 to something else.

A serious target shooter would use a .22. As target shooting and hunting are the two only reasons I see to own a gun, for the general population, then a .22 is perfect for most.

So a cabinet is where you'd keep it? No, you need a safe.

You know fully well that a gun cabinet is the same as a safe, stop being difficult.

[nomix]

Originally Posted by zenkidori

Where the fuck did my post go?!?!

Well here's my best at recreating it:
Indeed, I was just trying to point out that there are reasons for people owning different types and caliber of firearms. I would actually recommend a 9mm for starting, as it's cheap to fire, easy on the recoil but not too easy like a .22. You'll have a harder time jumping from a .22 to something else.

Still more expensive than a .22. But it's far in the future, we'll see.

So a cabinet is where you'd keep it? No, you need a safe.

Well, I was referring to an armoured, locked cabinet. I know lots of people who own guns, everything from old Mausers modified for target shooting, they work quite well for that purpose, to shotguns of different varieties. They have a steel cabinet that's locked. It's quite hard to break into.

But, a small safe would actually be better. But I might get into target shooting with rifles too, and then, well, it'll be hard to get one into a safe.

In any way, I'd probably have it at our summer house. It's on an island, with about 14 inhabbitants, which we all know.

Then, take a walk up into the mountains, to the old shooting range that's up there.

If all you do is shoot at a club's range, then by all means keep it there, but there are many safe options for keeping a gun or many guns at home such as safes, or what I do, don't keep any ammunition at home. When I want to go shoot I go buy ammo and then shoot it all. There is 0 chance of an accident happening without anything to accidentally fire.

That is a very good sollution, I do agree to that.

But it'll be nice to have the ability to use spear time at home cleaning and maintaining the firearm.

safe gun ownership isn't difficult, it's just common sense.

QFT.

[zenkidori]

Originally Posted by Peter3hg

A serious target shooter would use a .22. As target shooting and hunting are the two only reasons I see to own a gun, for the general population, then a .22 is perfect for most.

Says who? There are PLENTY of serious target shooters that use larger handguns, there are even professional shooting series. I don't know where you pulled that one out of.

Originally Posted by Peter3hg

You know fully well that a gun cabinet is the same as a safe, stop being difficult.

actually, no. Maybe over there you call a gun safe a cabinet, but here they are two very different things.

This would be a gun cabinet:


and this would be a gun safe:


there you see, different. A cabinet is fine if you have no ammo in the house or keep it locked up in an actual safe somewhere else, but otherwise you should have a safe.

nomix: did we just agree on something gun-related?!

[TomCat]

Originally Posted by teeb

Accidental gun deaths are very small, according to statistics. According to this theory though this is possibly due to mislabelling in hospitals. In their sample, using a revised classification meant there were 6 times more 'accidental' gun-related deaths.

I'd agree that people are scared of guns, though. Maybe just me, but I would brick myself just holding one. And (personally), it's not something I'd ever want in my house.

To me, a gun is just like a car. It's something that you need to respect and be smart about. Cars are 5 times more dangerous in the USA then guns. Or at least you're 5 times more likely to die in a car accident then in a shooting. In fact, if you're not in a Gang, then you'll increase your chances of survival by 66% in the US. And not being a complete asshole should help your odds even further.

Point is, you wouldn't "brick" yourself if you got behind the wheel of a VW Polo. As long as you know what you're doing.

[nomix]

Originally Posted by zenkidori

nomix: did we just agree on something gun-related?!

Yup. You just didn't ask the right questions before. Ask me no questions, and I'll give you no answers.

Seems to me, the whole thing is just about a misunderstanding, English is not my native language, as you know, and in Norwegian, we use "Våpenskap", which translates directly to "Gun cabinet". "Gun safe" would be something like "Våpensafe", which really isn't a normal word in Norwegian. "Våpenskap", however, would be understood with ease as what you refer to as a "Gun Safe".

[tigger]

Originally Posted by Blind_Io

...and in that case all the gun restrictions don't matter, do they? There will always be an illegal gun market, so why restrict the law abiding citizens?

Exactly. A friend of mine bought a .357 revolver for $100 for his house when he was 20. He could just as easily go kick down some doors with it and rob houses.

[nomix]

The reason why you restrict the law abiding citizens, is that most people obey the law until the moment they break it. Even the normal hard working average Joe, can get drunk and pissed at his neighbour, and what better to do, than pick up that good'ol gun?

[zenkidori]

and that's why we have the justice system, to deal with those people.

[Blind_Io]

Sweet Zombie Jesus! Why don't we take cars away from everyone because they can be used as getway vehicles? How about we take away box cutters because they can cut things other than boxes? If you are going to outlaw everything with the potential to do harm then why are you on a message board dedicated to extraordinary cars?

Look everything has the potential to do harm. Guns can be used to protect, for recreation, or, in the hands of the wrong person, to kill. Guess what? So can a baseball bat (or Cricket bat for you Aussies and Brits), are you going to outlaw those too?

[SuperStalin]

Weapons specifically designed to extinguish human life.

[zenkidori]

Originally Posted by SuperStalin

Weapons specifically designed to extinguish human life.

that's the thing tho, unless you are using a military weapon with military ammunition, they are not designed for that purpose. Gun manufacturers don't just sit around going, "how can we kill people, better?". Civilian arms are made for hunting, sport shooting or self defense.

[Blind_Io]

Originally Posted by SuperStalin

Weapons specifically designed to extinguish human life.

Horseshit.

My family ownes 4 Colt .45 1911 pistols - three of which have been modified for competition target shooting, only one is still the original G.I. issue. We have two .22 Supermatic Citation Pistols, a firearm specifically designed for competition shooting. If you know anything about firearms you know that you can't say that any .22 Long Rifle pistol or rifle is "designed to kill people." It doesn't have the penetration or knock-down power. You seriously think a biathlon rifle (.22) is a firearm purpose-built to kill? Shotguns gained popularity among the aristocracy of Europe for bird hunting.

Hell, even military weapons are not designed to kill, they are designed to wound. Why kill one soldier when you can wound him and take two others out of the battle to carry him to a med station?

Funny: Weird Al Yankovic's "Trigger Happy" came on my MP3 player while I was writing this; it's set to random.

[nomix]

Originally Posted by Blind_Io

Sweet Zombie Jesus! Why don't we take cars away from everyone because they can be used as getway vehicles?

Because they are absolutely needed to keep up communication.

How about we take away box cutters because they can cut things other than boxes? If you are going to outlaw everything with the potential to do harm then why are you on a message board dedicated to extraordinary cars?

I am not saying you should ban everything with the potential to do harm. I am saying it should be controlled. Guns are dangerous. There are NO comming away from it. I see the point for having a firearm for fun, in the same way you buy a Pug 205GTI 1.9 for nice sunday afternoons, but keep it locked up.

Now, I will admit the US is a special case. There are so many guns, that in some cases, the only way you COULD defend yourself is with a gun. Round here, the only people who generally feel a need to buy a gun to protect themselves, is criminals. And they do get it on the black market. But let's see it from another side.

They know most people won't have a gun under their pillow, so they don't bring a gun when they're breaking into a house.

We have gun deaths all the time in Norway, and most of the time, it's not criminals using illegal guns to kill someone they don't know, it's people getting drunk and shooting someone he knows with his shotgun after a disagreement. We have ruthless criminals in Norway too, like those who shot the police officer with an AG3 under a robbery, but that belongs to the rear cases. Here I live, some years ago, two police officers were shot to death by a mad man with a bear rifle. It was a totally legal gun.

It's true some guns are not specifically designed to kill people, normally civilian guns are made to kill animals or to hit a target. But if you can kill an elk with a gun, it's no problem killing a human, it's even easier.

Look everything has the potential to do harm. Guns can be used to protect, for recreation, or, in the hands of the wrong person, to kill. Guess what? So can a baseball bat (or Cricket bat for you Aussies and Brits), are you going to outlaw those too?

First of all, I'm not denying that, I'm just saying that gun are a special case, since they were thought up to do harm, and since the majority of guns, hunting weapons, were made to kill animals, and will have no problem taking out a person.

They are a special case, which doesn't need banning, but there is a need for strong control to make sure you don't get a gun if you don't know what you're doing. That way, one might stop some accidental gun deaths. Further, you need to make sure people lock them up, if I'm not mistaken, most illegal guns in the US were stolen from private individuals, right?

As for the bats, they're generally not allowed to carry in public. You won't go to jail, but police will take notice and ask you to take it home rather quickly.

But I won't start a gun war once more, we've had more than enough gun wars on this forum. They're fun, but they never ever lead to anything.

[SuperStalin]

@Blind Io: are you trying to misunderstand what I'm saying,
or am I really that cryptic?

1. I said that most people are simply too dumb and/or aggressive for their own good.
I wouldn't mind selling a gun to 10% of the people I know, but the rest of them are
just not to be trusted. Even though some of them never got arrested.

It's exactly them who also would be the first to buy guns and carry them if it was legally possible.

Hell, I woulnd't trust myself to always keep a gun locked in a cabinet.

So, in a word - no, I don't think all people are equal, at least not equally responsible.

2. I said "Weapons specifically designed to extinguish human life" meaning just
that... nobody needs such a weapon.

I know loads of people who have hunting rifles. It's fine by me.
they cannot carry such guns concealed, they can't take them into a disco etc.

btw. I personally know several gangsters who always carry illegal guns.
Some of them are hotheaded fools, some are always cool, but even they know
better than to pull a gun on someone in a crowd. I suppose older criminals taught them how to last longer.

On the other hand, some of the ordinary law-abiding people I know are so aggressive, hotheaded and frustrated, they'd start a firefight in a crowded place, just out of fear.

[zenkidori]

Originally Posted by nomix

They are a special case, which doesn't need banning, but there is a need for strong control to make sure you don't get a gun if you don't know what you're doing. That way, one might stop some accidental gun deaths. Further, you need to make sure people lock them up

I'm all for having a licensing system where you need to show proper training and storage before being able to own a gun, after all, if you need a license to operate a car you should need one to operate a gun. Conversely, were a licensing system to be put into place, I believe restrictions on weapon types should be relaxed or done away with all together.

Originally Posted by nomix

if I'm not mistaken, most illegal guns in the US were stolen from private individuals, right?

Most illegal guns come here the same way drugs do, thru our swiss cheese style excuse for a boarder.

[zenkidori]

Originally Posted by SuperStalin

On the other hand, some of the ordinary law-abiding people I know are so aggressive, hotheaded and frustrated, they'd start a firefight in a crowded place, just out of fear.

I really don't think you know what you're talking about hear. I know many people who have no problem starting shit with people, getting into fights and are easily pissed off, but that doesn't mean they are capable or likely to go on a GTA style rampage.

[SuperStalin]

Originally Posted by zenkidori

I really don't think you know what you're talking about hear. I know many people who have no problem starting shit with people, getting into fights and are easily pissed off, but that doesn't mean they are capable or likely to go on a GTA style rampage.

I'm talking about situations when fear overtakes a person,
not columbine high school situations.