Canada said yes

[justin syder]

Slippery slope huh.

Its not secret that divorce is more common now than it was in the 60s.

Its not secret that out-of-wedlock childbirths and single parent homes are more common now than a few decades ago.

You tell me that this isnt a case of slippery slope. Of course not you might argue that it is Liberal to raise a child alone, voluntarily or that divorce is fine and essential to the growth of a child.

I dont know about you but conservatives wouldnt think that higher divorce rates and single parent homes are progressive to society. Strange how Liberals think so.

[justin syder]

Originally Posted by Mischief007

Not to offend anybody, even you Justin, but "God" has been done for more bad things then good.

This passed legislation will make two people happier because they can finally say that they are together forever. Even though I don't believe in marriage at all. Marriage alone these days in only because of peer pressure when the guy knocks up the girl. Seen that one too many times and that's why the divorce rates are so high these days. Kids get married.

You believe marriage doesnt work but you believe two ppl will be happy because of it?

So were they unhappy before?

[Firecat]

Originally Posted by justin syder

Slippery slope huh.

Its not secret that divorce is more common now than it was in the 60s.

Its not secret that out-of-wedlock childbirths and single parent homes are more common now than a few decades ago.

You tell me that this isnt a case of slippery slope. Of course not you might argue that it is Liberal to raise a child alone, voluntarily or that divorce is fine and essential to the growth of a child.

I dont know about you but conservatives wouldnt think that higher divorce rates and single parent homes are progressive to society. Strange how Liberals think so.

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Yeah, divorce rates have increased. Yes, the traditional nuclear family has dwindled. I don't attribute this to homosexuality though, there are a number of factors that would result in this.

It's neither liberal nor conservative to raise a child alone. Yeah, I think the traditonal nuclear family is better (worked for me) but there are different scenarios. Should spousal abuse be tolerated and a wife stay with her husband for the sake of the child? Sometimes things don't work out. Women are more independent than before, they can support a child on their own without relying on a traditional male breadwinner.

I asked a question in my previous post, Why stop at limiting marriage to gays? Why not push for giving them the death penalty, imprisonment, or some other form of punishment?

[justin syder]

Firecat-

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Yeah, divorce rates have increased. Yes, the traditional nuclear family has dwindled. I don't attribute this to homosexuality though, there are a number of factors that would result in this.

I didnt say that but the eroding of traditional values and the institute of marriage has allowed it, gay marriage certainly wont save the institution of marriage and its too early to tell if it will hurt it.

However, I do know when more Liberal views have been applied to marriage in the past the result has been far to bad to ignore.

We shouldnt have out-of-wedlock babies being born, we shouldnt have high divorce rates, insanely high in California, we shouldnt deprive our children of a stable nuclear family with single parent homes or divorced couples. Those have hurt the children involved, clearly no one was looking out for them when they decided to apply Liberal views of how marriage should be.

It's neither liberal nor conservative to raise a child alone. Yeah, I think the traditonal nuclear family is better (worked for me) but there are different scenarios. Should spousal abuse be tolerated and a wife stay with her husband for the sake of the child? Sometimes things don't work out. Women are more independent than before, they can support a child on their own without relying on a traditional male breadwinner.

Marriage cannot work 100% of the time and divorce is a necessary option but we can strenghthen marriage by not allowing divorce for couples with children until the children are 18. This would drastically improve the family and the lives of the children. Also ppl would seriously think before having a child knowing they have to stick together until the child is 18.

Sure woman can support a child on their own but it is the emotional need of two parents that a woman or single father cannot do on their own. Unless a spouse died or some other extreme case families should not have single parent homes.

I asked a question in my previous post, Why stop at limiting marriage to gays? Why not push for giving them the death penalty, imprisonment, or some other form of punishment?

No need for that extreme. I have nothing against gays, marriage doesnt mean they cant be together or love each other. It is an institution for straight men and woman as it always has been.

[Firecat]

Not allowing divorce? That's insane. Maybe one could recommend counseling or something, but still. What if things are really really bad? Spousal abuse, adultery...any number of things

I think some states or people are doing something called a "covenant marriage" which is something like that....not sure the details.

I don't really see much difference in the government recognizing gay unions vs. marriage. The effect on the "morality of the state" would be the same, no? It sends the message that it's an acceptable relationship, thus your concerns about the effect on society would be the same.

[mmap]

Originally Posted by justin syder

I making the comparison to illustrate that at one time gay marriage, about 30-50 yrs ago would have been rediculous concept.

Yes, but why stop there. Not that long ago, women had no rights at all, the idea of women working and voting etc. was considered ridicolous. How about slavery? blacks had no rights whatsoever let's bring them back since nothing considered ridicolous at one time cannot be changed as time goes by. The aboriginals in Australis were classified as animals until the 1950's but they are equal humans now... What the hell is this, clearly since they were animals only a few decades ago they must still be animals even today!!!! Strip them of all human rights right now I say.

C'mon Justin. If you want to live in the world of 2000 years ago then I suggest you move in to the isolation of some mountain where you do not disturb others. You yourself said (somewhere) that the romans and greek of ancient times were barbarians and were are more civilised nowadays... Well which is it? Things must change for development to happen.

I appreciate you'r view on the sanctity of marriage, I hope more people who got married shared them. But they are only your views. Just because you see marriage as a religious institute does not meen that everyone does, or should, see it as such. Are only christians allowed to get married? after all they are the only ones who (theoretically) share your views.

[CanadianLoonie]

Originally Posted by tranceshakeel

He is a canadian Loonie

And you are a worthless Spanish peseta.

[CanadianLoonie]

Originally Posted by cvg

Idiotic opinion? If one doesn't agree with a person then they automatically have an idiotic opinion?

If someone's opinions are their arguments for active discrimination against others, then they are idiotic at the very least.

[cvrefugee]

Originally Posted by CanadianLoonie

If someone's opinions are their arguments for active discrimination against others, then they are idiotic at the very least.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/opinion

I give up on you...

[Firecat]

Hey, I never knew there was a wiktionary. That's awesome, I only recently discovered wikinews.

8)

[Mischief007]

Originally Posted by justin syder

You believe marriage doesnt work but you believe two ppl will be happy because of it?

So were they unhappy before?

Let me rephrase that.

What I was trying to say is that s small portiong of people, you for example Justin, take a high pride in getting married and starting a family. Two people that really want to get married, whether gay or straight, is because they want an everlasting bond.

I actually think this is a good thing because if gay people can show the straight people that marriage is not just because you have to get married. It is much more than that. Then this might change a lof of straight people's views that they "HAVE" to get married.

So we could get back to the days where people are married for 20+ years instead of the divorce rates we have these days.

[zenkidori]

Firecat comon, I could one up you, I want to rape a woman. The police would arrest me then send me to jail, why? Govt has no right to interfere in my life, or what about legalizing all drugs.

This has to be the DUBMEST argument I have ever seen here. Do you not get the difference between rape and marriage, or are you that bent? Interfering with the lives of two consenting adults who know what they are doing, and turning a blind eye to one of the most violent crimes ever commited are TWO VERY DIFFERENT THINGS!

Marriage is not only for Christians. Most Christians aren't even good Christians in the first place, just massive hypocrites. Thousands of people get married every day outside the church. Some churches even marry gay people! Marriage is a legal process, not a religious rite. Marriage entitles you to certain benefits and legal responsabilities under law that have nothing at all whatsoever to do with who you do or don't pray to.

[zenkidori]

We shouldnt have out-of-wedlock babies being born, we shouldnt have high divorce rates, insanely high in California, we shouldnt deprive our children of a stable nuclear family with single parent homes or divorced couples. Those have hurt the children involved, clearly no one was looking out for them when they decided to apply Liberal views of how marriage should be.

Again this is pretty weak, and it's not even an argument so much as a biased opinion, and a not very well informed one at that. I have seen some SERIOUSLY unstable nuclear families, and some very very loving and secure "non-traditional" ones, including gay and single parents.

[ryosuke]

sorry for bringing up this thread again, but its disgusting...

some straight () facts:

there are six billion people on this planet of which two billion are christian. christian rules are only valid for those, for the rest they are not. therefore christian ideas have absolutely no place in this dicussion since the government has to make laws for every citizen, not only the religious fundamentalists. if you want that, move to iran, that should suit you...
and the only reason there are so much christians is that the europeans were so creedy that they sent their ships around the world to steal stuff.
the great christian spaniards went to south america, slaughtered the natives and made them dig out gold. christian values? up yer arse!

and if justin could give me any proof that marriage was made by god to be between a man and a woman that is not taken out of the bible, i would be very pleased.

i really can't stand the constant moaning anymore that everything has been better in the past. its so ridiculous. go back a few hundred years and look what is has been like. in europe there were wars all the time, the christians were not civilized, they killed each other because of their creed, they killed pagans because of their hate, they shut everyone up who raised a different opinion, they made the peasants work like slaves, they kept every knowledge like a secret and spread terror (thats a latin word which means fear) to make people follow them.
nowadays we watch top gear and enjoy ourselves because we can. we have discussions here because we can and we all here lead considerably good lives, while back then we would have worked on the fields the whole day so that some fat arsed monarch could eat all day long.
the only thing that is getting worse and worse is the constant moaning.
back then you feared to die of a cold, now you fear that all your values go down the drain because of homosexual love...


in addition, homosexuality is not only a human phenomenon:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...yanimal_2.html
http://www.salon.com/it/feature/1999...5featurea.html
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...70268?v=glance


christians can do in their churches whatever they want, that is non of my business, but its also non of their business whom i marry.
one thing is for sure though, there have been millions of people tortured, slaughtered and oppressed in the name of the lord, so the fundamentalists should really shut the fuck up and keep their weird bigot morals to themselves.


anyway, thanks to ///M, the loonie, zenkidori, renesis and everyone i have forgot for showing that not everyone has lost his mind.

[///M]

Well said.

I already clearly showed that religions that far pre-dated Christianity had the concept of two people of the same sex being partners.

Seth and Horus, read up about it. If we want to play this little god game, it's only logical that one considers which faith was recorded first.

[jeffy777]

I would like to add some balance to the religious perspectives expressed in this disscussion:

No government should make laws based on religious principles alone. I am a Christian, which means that I have different views on right and wrong than an atheist probably does, but I don't think there should be laws governing marriage because Christian principles should not be forced on those who aren't Christians, plain and simple. If people don't want to follow these principles, that is their free decision.

No church should push for control over government (Medeivel Roman Catholicism at it's worst) and No government should push for control over religion (Communism at it's worst, and modern persecution in some countries due to government laws)

So there needs to be liberty in matters pertaining to religious beliefs.

[ryosuke]

that is some true christian spirit jeffy!

[Renesis]

well said, definately a worthy bump for once!

[CanadianLoonie]

I rev the engine of my 911 Turbo in agreement with jeffy.

[Dr. Woo]

Leave marriage up to the churches and states and get the Fed OUT!

There are tons and tons of churches that would bless a same-sex couple in marriage without any qualms.

And this is coming from a fairly religious Christian.