Catholic Church adds seven new deadly sins

[argatoga]

Originally Posted by Blind_Io

But if it was "in their faith to feed people" (which makes no sense at all - faith is blind belief. wait.... I guess in this case that does work) then the church would do more than just a token amount relative to their wealth. I mean if the manifestation of the "faith" isn't liquidating their billions in gold or drawing on their sizable investments to do "good works" that kind of makes them hypocrites, don't you think?

They have made saints of men who gave away everything they had, and they do so from gilded chambers in their own private country.

OK I should be a bit more carful with the words I choose. Doctrine would be a better word. I do agree with your Calvinistic like logic, that you only need the bare minimum, a room with four walls and a roof, and the rest should be spent on charity work. However I still hold to the fact that most of the money goes to good charity work. The land and buildings are tax free and aren't exactly high upkeep.

[Blind_Io]

So they have low overhead?
And they have vast reserves of liquid funds.

... and that money that isn't paying the overhead is not being used to better mankind.... why, exactly?

I'm not saying they should live like monks... wait a second. Let's think about that expression for a moment. No, actually, I guess I AM saying they should live like monks.

[argatoga]

Originally Posted by Blind_Io

You are arguing an indefensible position, argatoga. No matter how you polish it, they are making "obscene" amounts of money off some of the poorest people in the world. Sure they give a bit back for the sake of PR, but that token amount doesn't count for anything in the grand scheme of things. Even their charitable work is for their own self interests, the fact that someone else may have benefited is only a by-product of the Church furthering it's own goals of self-propagation and the accumulation of wealth and influence.

You don't have to donate, if someone doesn't have the money to pay their tithe than they can just not do it. Also I might add that local churches do a lot of good through local charity as well, so I wouldn't limit the charity work being done to just that done by The Vatican itself.

[Blind_Io]

You keep speaking in vague terms, "a lot" "most" etc.

I provided numbers about their wealth and estimated value. I challenge you to find numbers to support your claim that "most" the church's wealth is given away. I don't think you will find any thing like that. If I were in their position I would not divulge the wealth of the organization or how much is "donated to charity." Let's not forget that most people see giving to the church as charity - so let's see where that money goes.

C'mon Popey needs a new hat.

[argatoga]

Originally Posted by Blind_Io

So they have low overhead?
And they have vast reserves of liquid funds.

... and that money that isn't paying the overhead is not being used to better mankind.... why, exactly?

I'm not saying they should live like monks... wait a second. Let's think about that expression for a moment. No, actually, I guess I AM saying they should live like monks.

Do we have accounting records which state where the money is going? We can't really conclude this debate for either side without them, however I will say that paying clergy (including monks and priests) does cost a whole crap load of money, and no most priests don't, and should not, live the high life of luxury.

I am not a super huge defender of The Catholic Church, however I still maintain that most of the money donated to them, after you deduct the overhead of paying priests and the like obviously, goes to charity. However without the accounting books I cannot absolutely back this belief.

[Blind_Io]

I'm not asking for the Church's internal records, just some estimates, some ballpark figures. I bet it doesn't even come close to equaling the Church's holdings in North America alone.

So you have faith that most the money goes to charity - belief that it does in the absence of proof.

That's fine. I think it's a naive position to take because it can't be defended, but it's your choice. I have numbers and estimates from governmental agencies and watchdog groups that cast a serious doubt onto your faith, and more importantly, I am not so trusting. The Church's record is hardly spotless, even it's greatest modern icon, Mother Teresa, doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

I don't need faith in my disdain for the Catholic Church, I have evidence to back me up. Faith is what people rely on when they can't adapt to a changing world or have integrated an idea so deeply into their persona they can't let it go. If it helps you sleep at night, continue to believe that the Catholic Church is a force of good in the world. I will dream of their downfall.

[argatoga]

I have numbers and estimates from governmental agencies and watchdog groups that cast a serious doubt onto your faith

Send me the links or post them here, I am open to change my mind. I just don't believe what you have posted so far counters my claim, though I do admit I don't have much to back up my belief in the matter.

[Blind_Io]

I already posted them.

Originally Posted by Blind_Io

I also find it ironic that the Catholic church is saying it's a sin to become wealthy when the Archdiocese of Chicago alone is worth more than $2 billion USD. That's just Chicago! Their charity is a token amount considering their wealth, especially for a church that prides itself on charitable works and "bettering" mankind. The Boston Archdiocese is supposedly worth over $635,000,000 USD and only has debts of about $500,000. That's a hell of a lot of money that's not feeding the homeless, building infrastructure or fighting disease. It is hypothesized that Catholic Church assets and real estate holdings in the US exceed those of Standard Oil, A.T.&T., and U.S. Steel combined. If you were to combine all the Church's assets it is probably the most powerful private financial entity in the world, surpassing all but the wealthiest governments. They have a deposit of gold with the US Federal Reserve that was reported by the United Nations World Magazine to be worth several billion dollars.

They are liars and hypocrites.

Google. Know it, use it, love it.

[nist7]

Originally Posted by Blind_Io

I also find it ironic that the Catholic church is saying it's a sin to become wealthy when the Archdiocese of Chicago alone is worth more than $2 billion USD. That's just Chicago! Their charity is a token amount considering their wealth, especially for a church that prides itself on charitable works and "bettering" mankind. The Boston Archdiocese is supposedly worth over $635,000,000 USD and only has debts of about $500,000. That's a hell of a lot of money that's not feeding the homeless, building infrastructure or fighting disease. It is hypothesized that Catholic Church assets and real estate holdings in the US exceed those of Standard Oil, A.T.&T., and U.S. Steel combined. If you were to combine all the Church's assets it is probably the most powerful private financial entity in the world, surpassing all but the wealthiest governments. They have a deposit of gold with the US Federal Reserve that was reported by the United Nations World Magazine to be worth several billion dollars.

They are liars and hypocrites.

Wow.

Are there any estimates on how much the entire Catholic church organization is worth?

[argatoga]

Yes they have a lot of assists sitting around in a bank account, but it doesn't prove that they are not spending most of their money on charity work. I am thinking of their yearly budget.

And the links you posted were about their anti-contraception policy, not how much money has been spent on feeding people and the like.

[Blind_Io]

I have not found any estimates on that yet. Given the rate of inflation and the holdings in various stock and money markets combined with inflation and a conservative growth rate, I bet they are well over one trillion USD.

I think the Church tries very hard to conceal their wealth, because it reveals them to be the hypocrites they are.

Originally Posted by argatoga

Yes they have a lot of assists sitting around in a bank account, but it doesn't prove that they are not spending most of their money on charity work.

And the links you posted were about their anti-contraception policy, not how much money has been spent on feeding people and the like.

How can they spend the money if it's in bank accounts or tied up in gold, stocks, bonds, moneymarkets, or real estate? It can't.

Yes, I posted links about that because it speaks to their allegiance to a made-up dogmatic law over the spirit of helping people in need. Their adherence to arbitrary rules is causing incredible and long-term harm to humanity. Their "charity" (read: PR) work is a band-aid, nothing more than a stunt and a stopgap for a long lasting problem. They made it a sin to study genetics, that means they would rather see people starve or continue to live on charity for generations rather than address the problem: we need crops that can grow in those environments. They will treat the sick but not the cause of the disease.

Even if I did believe you about how much they give away, it's all misplaced. They could actually help fix the world instead of prolonging the problem.

[nist7]

Originally Posted by Blind_Io

I have not found any estimates on that yet. Given the rate of inflation and the holdings in various stock and money markets combined with inflation and a conservative growth rate, I bet they are well over one trillion USD.

I think the Church tries very hard to conceal their wealth, because it reveals them to be the hypocrites they are.

That's a good point. If the Catholics claim to be as generous and as good they are, why is it so hard to look up their financial status? You'd think they would have a website/service dedicated to the publication of their financial situation....its not like they have patents or copyright infringements or some sort of corporate espionage to fear.....lol

[Blind_Io]

Just something to think about in the handy form of a graphic I just happen to have on file:



EDIT:

Found some interesting information:

http://www.zenit.org/article-1900?l=english

... The income derived from these oblations reached the come of 43.219 billion in 2000, with an increase of roughly 2 billion from the figure for 1999. To this wave of solidarity were united the offers from religious institutes as well as foundations, associations, Catholic entities, and the faithful, from which was received a sum of 78.417 billion.


2) Financial Activity. In this sector are included the financial activities of the seven consolidated administrations, of which the largest is APSA Ordinary Section. We have been fortunate, in that the net result of this sector closed with a gain of 125.184 billion, higher by approximately 38 billion than that of 1999.

3) The real estate sector in fiscal year 2000 shows expenses of 51.852 billion and income of 81.749 billion, thus closing with a gain of 29.887 billion, higher by roughly 11 billion than that of 1999, because of fewer expenditures for maintenance and repairs effectuated before the Jubilee year.

In conclusion, permit me to underline that from 1993 to 2000 all the consolidated financial statements of the Holy See have closed in the black. This has been made possible not only by a vigilant control of costs but above all by the ever greater sum that comes to us from Bishops, Religious, Foundations, Associations, Catholic entities, and the faithful, on behalf of whom I ask you to convey my most lively gratitude, together with the following consideration: economic autonomy is for the Church the best guarantee of liberty in her mission of evangelization without dependence upon the powerful of this world

The breakdown:
Total income 422.098 billion (not total worth, just total income for the year. Let me say that again, this is what they made ON TOP of their non-liquid assets like art and real estate)
(increased by 64 billion from previous fiscal year)

number of our employees (in 2000) was approximately 2,700
(an increase @ 70 persons.)

expenses @ 188 billion – note: unless I read the article wrong, there was no mention of charitable giving, only receiving



You had better be giving a hell of alot of that away to say that "most" the money is going to charity work. I would bet my left nut that the majority of those funds goes to paying administrative costs, property upkeep and other such expenses - essentially the money gets reinvested into the parent organization so it can make more money in the form of dividends, evangelism, solicitation of donations, and churches (branch offices).

[Donington]

I didn't hear that the Big G himself had descended upon earth and told Mr P that he was cool with this shit.

Making decisions behind the boss' back would get you fired.

[D-Fence]

Yeah, the church is evil.

Let's create an own church!


How about

"Church of the holy piston, brother supercharger and the holy boost?"

[chaos386]

Originally Posted by Blind_Io