Chinese pollution in pictures by Lu Guang

[Koenig]

Originally Posted by nomix

Selling condoms in China should be big business. Especially considering there must be at least 50 million Chinese with latex alergy, which means you can sell them expensive replacement condoms.

Except it isn't, because men in China hate protected sex. Heck, the only places you can actually buy condoms in China are Western chain stores (the only place I saw condoms on sale in China was at a Carrefour in Shanghai).

[nomix]

Dang, there goes the house!

Selling scooters should probably be a nice deal.

[BlaRo]

Hey, the Chinese already have a pretty good population control scheme underway.

+ YouTube Video

Hey, the damn thing has airbags. How bourgeois!

[katwalk]

And we blame the pollution on the cars?
Yes sure it's the cars, not the black smoke coming from factories, not the soot from the coal plants it's the cars.

[BlaRo]

Originally Posted by katwalk

And we blame the pollution on the cars?
Yes sure it's the cars, not the black smoke coming from factories, not the soot from the coal plants it's the cars.

What? Nobody said that. I just made a bad-taste quip about how shitty Chinese cars are.

[katwalk]

Not on here obviously, I meant in general. When was the last time you heard about cleaning up factory and plant emissions? It's all about reducing the emissions on cars that in real smoggy areas are actually cleaning the air.

[BlaRo]

Originally Posted by katwalk

Not on here obviously, I meant in general. When was the last time you heard about cleaning up factory and plant emissions? It's all about reducing the emissions on cars that in real smoggy areas are actually cleaning the air.

Because it doesn't affect the general populace as much as automobiles do. How many people do you know own a car? And how many people do you know manage a factory or processing plant?

[katwalk]

You would be surprised how many of my friends do not own cars, In fact the only ones that do are on this forum.

[Koenig]

Originally Posted by katwalk

You would be surprised how many of my friends do not own cars, In fact the only ones that do are on this forum.

Why are all your friends bums.

[tigger]

I think that China needs to take the bulk of the responsibility for their pollution. While it's easy to blame rampant materialism, they have no excuse other than greed. Pollution standards are still passed in the west regardless of what the effect on energy prices or industry will be. The technology to produce cleaner power already exists. China is already poising themselves to be a huge player in solar panels. And yet they're planning on building dozens of coal plants and who knows how many factories over the coming years. China shouldn't be given a free pass just because it could hurt "our" manufacturing capacity or marginally slow their outrageous growth.

[hansvonaxion]

lol at China being "greedy" and getting a "free-pass".

But anyway, here is some info, make of it what you will.

China's GDP is 50% industry, 40% service.
America's is 20% industry, 80% service.

That would mean
2.15TN of China's GDP is generated by industry,
2.88TN of the US's.

China has a trade surplus of 371BN.
America has a trade deficit of 731BN.

It's estimated that 25-33% of China's carbon emission are as a result of producing exports for the US and EU.

Here's a pretty picture...



You see all those decades that the US and EU were polluting the fuck out of the planet while building their economies into superpower status? Funny thing about the west; we want everyone else to learn from our mistakes, only after we've profited from them.

[tigger]

Originally Posted by hansvonaxion

lol at China being "greedy" and getting a "free-pass".

...

Originally Posted by hansvonaxion

estimated that 25-33% of China's carbon emission are as a result of producing exports for the US and EU.

Originally Posted by hansvonaxion

You see all those decades that the US and EU were polluting the fuck out of the planet while building their economies into superpower status? Funny thing about the west; we want everyone else to learn from our mistakes, only after we've profited from them.

What?

[BlaRo]

As in, we made the same mistakes China's making right now, but only now do we want China to do something about it. Makes you wonder if there are any blatant ulterior motives to all of this environmental posturing - like, say, reigning back China from becoming even stronger industrially than it is now.

[Karoug]

[tigger]

Originally Posted by BlaRo

As in, we made the same mistakes China's making right now, but only now do we want China to do something about it. Makes you wonder if there are any blatant ulterior motives to all of this environmental posturing - like, say, reigning back China from becoming even stronger industrially than it is now.

I was just commenting that he seemed to contradict himself, but maybe I'm reading it wrong.

Also, any increased costs on China's end will likely equate to increased costs on their exports. Basically it will hurt us too. Which is why China won't clean up their act and we won't make them.

"You guys didn't control pollution during your industrial revolution ... you know ... back before you truly knew how awful it was ... or had the technology to curb it ...", does not sound like a legitimate excuse to me. I don't understand how it's okay with some of you guys just because we did it too. Imagine if those photos were coming from places in the US (it's not so long ago that they could have). Would a legitimate excuse be, "Well, it will hurt our bottom line to clean up, and someone else already got away with it anyway."?

[hansvonaxion]

Originally Posted by BlaRo

As in, we made the same mistakes China's making right now, but only now do we want China to do something about it. Makes you wonder if there are any blatant ulterior motives to all of this environmental posturing - like, say, reigning back China from becoming even stronger industrially than it is now.

Yes.

Originally Posted by Karoug

It's a conspiracy

I didn't quite go that far... yet.

But it's funny you mention it when a large percentage of this forum don't believe in man-made global warming and some believe it's been manufactured to create another industry, one that's technology and R&D based which favours developed countries.

Originally Posted by tigger

I was just commenting that he seemed to contradict himself, but maybe I'm reading it wrong.

I don't see where I did.

Point is, a large amount of their pollution is created as a result of producing our goods, feeding our consumerist societies. It's carbon leakage.

Originally Posted by tigger

Also, any increased costs on China's end will likely equate to increased costs on their exports. Basically it will hurt us too. Which is why China won't clean up their act and we won't make them.

Make them? So you feel we have the right to force other countries to bow to our will? They've just caught up with the US in outright production of CO2 and it's time for us to tell them to quit it?

So we want China to "clean up their act" (ie stop producing so much pollution in their own country to make our stuff) but we don't want to pay for it. Makes sense.

Originally Posted by tigger

"You guys didn't control pollution during your industrial revolution ... you know ... back before you truly knew how awful it was ... or had the technology to curb it ...", does not sound like a legitimate excuse to me. I don't understand how it's okay with some of you guys just because we did it too. Imagine if those photos were coming from places in the US (it's not so long ago that they could have). Would a legitimate excuse be, "Well, it will hurt our bottom line to clean up, and someone else already got away with it anyway."?

You still produce about the same amount as China. Per capita a hell of a lot more! You still do it and have been doing for a hell of a long time.

Which country signed the Kyoto Protocol, China or the US?

Also, this is easy to say when you are living in one of the richest countries in the world and have all the opportunities afforded to you as a result of that, even when all of that wealth came at the expense of our (including the Chinese) environment.

Let me bring up beef consumption. When are Americans going to stop eating beef? You all know how bad it is for the environment, you can't claim ignorance (not like ignorance was ever an excuse for the rampant pollution). Here's a couple of quotes...

Producing 1kg of beef results in more CO2 emissions than going for a three-hour drive while leaving all the lights on at home, scientists said today.

Since 1960, more than 25 percent of the Central American forests have been lost to beef production -- most of it for export to the United States and Europe. It has been estimated that for every quarter-pound fast-food hamburger made from Central American beef, 55 square feet of tropical forest -- including 165 pounds of unique species of plants and animals -- is destroyed.

Per capita consumption of beef in kg in 1999?

US 45.3
Aus 40.2
NZ 34.1
Can 32.1

China 4.1

So when all those billions of Chinese start earning some decent money and feel like a cheeseburger it's too bad?

Glad I'm not Chinese.

[tigger]

Originally Posted by hansvonaxion

I don't see where I did.

You dismissed the idea that China was greedy or getting a free pass, then seemed to endorse both notions. No one is forcing China into the position they are in. They are victims of "carbon leakage" because of their own policies.

Originally Posted by hansvonaxion

Make them? So you feel we have the right to force other countries to bow to our will? They've just caught up with the US in outright production of CO2 and it's time for us to tell them to quit it?

So we want China to "clean up their act" (ie stop producing so much pollution in their own country to make our stuff) but we don't want to pay for it. Makes sense.

For fucks sake. Way to take that entirely out of context. First off, I don't think we should or shouldn't "bend countries to our will". We just do. Everyone does it when they can. That's just the status quo.

Second, what I said was not complicated. If China "cleans up their act" that will translate to higher costs of production. Those costs are most often passed onto the consumer (that's us). We pay for it. Yes, tighter pollution and waste laws would slightly slow China's economic growth. Companies would look for somewhere with more lax laws. The price of the goods we receive would rise because of this. But China wouldn't be killing it's own citizens and destroying their land and water trying to maintain their outrageous growth.

Finally, who do you think I am? Some stereotypical herpderp warmongering American neckbeard? I'm not typing this while driving my dually to McDonalds.

Originally Posted by hansvonaxion

You still produce about the same amount as China. Per capita a hell of a lot more! You still do it and have been doing for a hell of a long time.

Yes, we do. But for the last 40 years (entities like the Chamber of Commerce and the GOP notwithstanding) we have been making a concerted effort to clean up. We do produce a lot of pollution but images like those that Lu Guang captures are no longer common place in the US.

I'm curious, other than pointing fingers at the big, bad US; what is your actual position on this? The government of China has no problem killing their own people in the name of rapid industrialization, is that OK with you? I mean, if it's just our fault and not theirs? You do realize that the US, as an industrial heavyweight, has hit its stride and China is only just getting started? If they start off polluting like crazy it's going to be that much harder for them to stop. That should be more than evident just by looking at the US.

Originally Posted by hansvonaxion

Which country signed the Kyoto Protocol, China or the US?

China signing the Kyoto Protocol was a joke. Since they are considered a developing nation they can largely ignore it. Not that I don't think we should have signed it.

Originally Posted by hansvonaxion

When are Americans going to stop eating beef?

When it quits being delicious. There is nothing wrong with beef, just the terrible industry built around it here. I try to avoid supporting it by hunting deer. One deer goes a long way when half your family is vegetarian .

[Ladamaha]

Originally Posted by hansvonaxion

stuff

I appreciate the effort and see what you are getting at, but CO2 doesn't give you lung cancer.

Comparing CO2 production and making it the evil is playing with statistics to prove your point. As far as I know, the real problem for people in China is the smog as shown in the pictures. That is real pollution that gives you cancer and problems, CO2 production doesn't correlate with smog production.

It's a fucked up world and China is even more so. They should cut their pollution for the sake of their people because it's the right thing to do, not because some Prius driving ecohippies want to feel better using "green" products and have clear conscious.

@ Jayhawk: WTF? China attacking to Europe through Russia, are you mad?

[hansvonaxion]

Originally Posted by tigger

You dismissed the idea that China was greedy or getting a free pass, then seemed to endorse both notions. No one is forcing China into the position they are in. They are victims of "carbon leakage" because of their own policies.

If you can't see the irony of an American calling China "greedy" then I don't know what to say. So I'll leave this thread and won't say anymore.

Originally Posted by tigger

For fucks sake. Way to take that entirely out of context. First off, I don't think we should or shouldn't "bend countries to our will". We just do. Everyone does it when they can. That's just the status quo.

Originally Posted by tigger

Finally, who do you think I am? Some stereotypical herpderp warmongering American neckbeard? I'm not typing this while driving my dually to McDonalds.

I didn't even know you were American when I first replied.

Originally Posted by tigger

I'm curious, other than pointing fingers at the big, bad US;

Y'know, I wasn't so much pointing the finger as making a head-to-head comparison. The fact that you can call China greedy yet are so overly sensitive of perceived criticism of your home country no matter how deserved it may be speaks volumes.

Originally Posted by tigger

what is your actual position on this? The government of China has no problem killing their own people in the name of rapid industrialization, is that OK with you? I mean, if it's just our fault and not theirs? You do realize that the US, as an industrial heavyweight, has hit its stride and China is only just getting started? If they start off polluting like crazy it's going to be that much harder for them to stop. That should be more than evident just by looking at the US.

Can't say I really have a position.

I've already posted an idea, but I'll do it again. The US and EU could require all companies investing in China to make sure their facilities adhere to their respective environmental regulations.

They could also develop regulations for the importation of goods to make sure they are produced in facilities that meet certain criteria, like ISO standards. Not dissimilar to regulations aimed at curbing the proliferation of sweat-shops.

Considering we've had a 40 year head start developing the technologies required to reduce emissions and pollutions, we could provide the technology for them to clean up their act while doing our dirty work as an act of goodwill, cos we aren't greedy and it's in our benefit anyway.

Originally Posted by Ladamaha

I appreciate the effort and see what you are getting at, but CO2 doesn't give you lung cancer.

Comparing CO2 production and making it the evil is playing with statistics to prove your point. As far as I know, the real problem for people in China is the smog as shown in the pictures. That is real pollution that gives you cancer and problems, CO2 production doesn't correlate with smog production.

It's a fucked up world and China is even more so. They should cut their pollution for the sake of their people because it's the right thing to do.

The real pollution?

While I appreciate where you're coming from, the reason I posted stats on C02 is because that's pretty much what you get if you start looking. That's because it's the biggest threat to the environment at the moment. That's what is of most concern to people when talking about China's burgeoning industrial sector.

Visible pollution can be deceiving.

Besides analyzing just the type of aerosol – either nitrogen dioxide or sulfates – we can also look at the particle size of pollutants in China. The particles sizes of aerosols in China are larger, which is due to the type and source of emissions.

...the radii of aerosols are larger in China. However, the EPA has determined that smaller particles are actually more harmful than larger particles!

Yes, there is dangerous pollution, but just because it's the most visible doesn't mean it's the most deadly.

But if you want to talk about particulate pollution, well we could be doing a lot about that, too, and it would help the Chinese population to boot.

How about some regulations on container ships? The technology is available but no-one is doing anything.

Shipping is responsible for 18-30% of all the world's nitrogen oxide (NOx) pollution and 9% of the global sulphur oxide (SOx) pollution.

One large ship can generate about 5,000 tonnes of sulphur oxide (SOx) pollution in a year

70% of all ship emissions are within 400km of land.

85% of all ship pollution is in the northern hemisphere.

Shipping is responsible for 3.5% to 4% of all climate change emissions

It's responsible for over 60,000 premature deaths per year, not including respiratory problems such as asthma.

Here's a picture of where those deaths occur.



Over and out.

[tigger]

Originally Posted by hansvonaxion

...

I'm "overly-sensitive" of people twisting what I wrote so much that I wonder if they even read it at all. I also don't see anywhere where I tried to excuse what the US does. At worst all I did was agree with you.

China needs to accept responsibility for this themselves. Forcing western companies to obey their home nation's environmental laws would be a joke. I mean it's a nice idea, but it would be ineffective. Even if the companies did obey (and not just move their headquarters or production elsewhere) the gains wouldn't be that great. Those companies would still be pulling their power from the relatively unregulated Chinese grid and their own domestic industry (which by your statistics accounts for as much as 75% of their emissions) would still be in the same state.

Restrictions on imports might be a little better, but I think that would still be extremely difficult to enforce.

My main problem is that China is very publicly pursuing green energy. They just finalized a deal to build a large wind farm in western Texas. They want to corner the world market on solar panels. And yet at home they continue to implement destructive environmental policies.